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13 Jul 05
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I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought about the possible limitations of human reason?
PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
13 Jul 05
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerAtleast reason originating from a "chemical soup "will be unbiased to that created by an attention-seeking nut .
I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Have you guys ever thought o ...[text shortened]... ur reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerI prefer to think in the absence of reason. It is a better foundation.
Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought about the possible limitations of human reason?
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerThere are many limitations to human reason and it is certain that we will never be able to explain everything. But that doesn't mean we should make up some "god" just so we can fill all the gaps in our knowledge. That is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness. But even if we accept that we cannot know everything, the furious rate at which we are discovering natural explanations for things formerly attributed to the hand of god indicates that there is a natural explanation for everything out there just waiting to be discovered. We may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?
PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerMy view is the capacity for logical thought (abstract reasoning) is what it means when the Bible says we a made in the image of God. I think that is what differentiates us from animals - God gave man the ability to reason. So I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs. I do not think any true Christian beliefs are irrational (the Christian world view does not contain contradictory beliefs) and is completely logic.
I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?
PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
That being said, man in general is flawed, he makes mistakes in reasoning. This is called the noetic effect of sin. Further, man is limited in his capacity for knowing things. Where God knows all true propositions, man's mind is finite. Although man can know some of God's thoughts, he can not know them all.
The thoughts of God that man can know are logical and non-contradictory. If one holds to any contradictory beliefs, one can be sure that at least one is not of God and is false. Thus the benefit of logic is it can be used as a tool to better understanding of spiritual truths.
Logic itself can not answer any questions - but in so much as man can reason correctly, he is thinking like God. And if one starts with the correct premises (those from God), then one can understand God better using logic.
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by rwingettThat is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness.
There are many limitations to human reason and it is certain that we will never be able to explain everything. But that doesn't mean we should make up some "god" just so we can fill all the gaps in our knowledge. That is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness. But even if we accept that we cannot know everything, the furious rate at which we are ...[text shortened]... we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
And lack of existential courage. Which is not to imply that all theists are guilty of either; but certainly the “God of the gaps” variety you refer to. And not that we don’t all fail at times…
We may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
And even if we can’t…
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by ColettiAll this raises the question as to why those we believe themselves filled with the Holy Spirit are particularly prone to errors in reason, far more so than the vast majority of those of us who wallow in our fallen state.
My view is the capacity for logical thought (abstract reasoning) is what it means when the Bible says we a made in the image of God. I think that is what differentiates us from animals - God gave man the ability to reason. So I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs. I do not think any true ...[text shortened]... arts with the correct premises (those from God), then one can understand God better using logic.
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerplease see rwingett's above post -- he beat me to the punch.
I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?
PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
in particular, the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerYou guys seem to worship human reason.
I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?
PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
how are you defining 'worship', and please also define what types of entities may be 'worshipped'. be careful, lest you either:
1. completely make a farce of the definition of 'human reason'.
or
2. renounce your own faith.
if you can perform this task successfully, i will admit that i 'worship reason' within the framework you come up with. that won't change the fact that i don't share your belief in a god, so why bother?
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by ColettiSo I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs.
My view is the capacity for logical thought (abstract reasoning) is what it means when the Bible says we a made in the image of God. I think that is what differentiates us from animals - God gave man the ability to reason. So I don't disparage "human reason" because it is often used as a reason for accepting irrational beliefs. I do not think any true ...[text shortened]... arts with the correct premises (those from God), then one can understand God better using logic.
i'm not sure how to respond succintly except to say that, true to form, my head is dizzied by your personal arsenal of self-imposed definitions. something is clearly wrong with your framework if, within that framework, reason is employed as a means to justify that which is irrational.
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerYou realize that you are arguing from reason here right?
I see so many guys out here are infatuated with human reason. You guys seem to worship human reason. I am refering to 'reason' as the capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence.
Have you guys ever thought of the possibility that human reason might not be able to explain everything? In fact have any of you guys ever thought a ...[text shortened]... of human reason?
PS: If your reason evolved from a chemical soup then how can you trust it?
Despite your best efforts, you can't escape reason dj2. You can use bad reasoning, but not no reasoning at all (Unless you just start speaking gibberish.)
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13 Jul 05
Originally posted by rwingettWe may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
There are many limitations to human reason and it is certain that we will never be able to explain everything. But that doesn't mean we should make up some "god" just so we can fill all the gaps in our knowledge. That is an inexcusable degree of intellectual laziness. But even if we accept that we cannot know everything, the furious rate at which we are ...[text shortened]... we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
So you don't think that the dimension that is just beyond your grasp might be part of the supernatural which you might be too blind to see?
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13 Jul 05
Originally posted by LemonJello...the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.
please see rwingett's above post -- he beat me to the punch.
in particular, the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.
Does this fact in any way justify the non-existance of supernatural solutions?
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerWhen are you going to make a purely supernatural argument, without resorting to stone age mythology and lol goat herder science.
[b]We may not learn the cause of everything, but we can confidently infer that there is a logical explanation for it all just beyond our grasp.
So you don't think that the dimension that is just beyond your grasp might be part of the supernatural which you might be too blind to see?
[/b]
13 Jul 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerYou still haven't made an existential argument for anything supernatural.
[b]...the fact that something may not be fully disclosed to us through reason in no way justifies supernatural solutions, which only lead to more positive assertions that we cannot justify.
Does this fact in any way justify the non-existance of supernatural solutions?[/b]