I and Thou

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
No direction home.

This is quite in keeping with Rosenzweig's idea of the travelling differential, although he likes the idea of redemption (ultimate plenitude: when the concept of the All loses its incoherence).

I also like Kavafis, although not for revolutionary sentiments. Gearing up to watching the film (apparently "the best Greek film of t ...[text shortened]... ead. Got to match the marks on the page with the sounds in the ear. Poetry's good for that.

"Planning on learning basic Greek!"

Koine?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Planning on learning basic Greek!"

Koine?

Michel Thomas, then I'll see.

Originally posted by vistesd
In Martin Buber’s classic I and Thou, he proposes that we can relate to the Other (specifically, the human, individual other) according to the concepts embedded in two different hyphenated word pairs: I-You or I-It. In the first, we recognize the other as a person like us who, like us, has hopes and fears and biases and dreams and anxi ...[text shortened]... under an existential and ethical imperative to treat them as a “Thou”, not an “It”.

Thoughts?

Golden rule anyone?

Matthew 7:12

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

If all men were to obey this command for just one day, I believe we could end poverty. Wishful thinking perhaps, but it seems that at the very least we would end this miserable debate. 🙂

Originally posted by josephw
Golden rule anyone?

Matthew 7:12

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

If all men were to obey this command for just one day, I believe we could end poverty. Wishful thinking perhaps, but it seems that at the very least we would end this miserable debate. 🙂

I find it very difficult to respect people who say things like Jews ruin people's lives.

Originally posted by black beetle
A real person?
The eyes see forms outside, but inside there is nothing. The ears hear defiling sounds but the mind doesn’t know. Everything, “Thou - It” included, is produced and extinguished by conditions. Obtaining, I ‘m not delighted. Losing, I don’t worry. Knowing how to be content I ‘m always happy, knowing to be patient I ‘m peaceful and I get ri ...[text shortened]... ions; show me your product and I ‘ll give you the copy


Best to you and yours, my friend
😵

Yes, but there's no sweat in those words, and they can imply a retreat into abstraction. When someone is hungry and has naught to eat, that is not the moment to teach metaphysics; when one is wounded and suffering, that is not the moment to teach the eightfold path. In such moments, first heal—then teach.

Do you know the story behind Buber's writing of I and Thou?

Your view here (that, philosophically, has also been mine) is also found in Judaism (though not in Buber). One of the most poetic explications of nondualism in Jewish thought is Lawrence Kushner's Honey From the Rock. Kushner begins at the level of malchut—the very intimate world of assiyah—the world of aromatic spices and smelly armpits, of laughing children and grieving mothers; from there he carries out the ascent to the only-One. That is the only place that one begins—and one returns, with a new realization—but one returns and returns and returns. Realization of the One is not denial of the reality of the many, of the multiplicity. Realization of atzilut does not imply denial of assiyah; ein sof does not stand as a denial of malchut—illusion is to be lost in one-sidedness at either end of the spectrum.

The recognition of the One in the highest (I would rather say, deepest) world of atzilut carries with it an ethical imperative in the other worlds. Not the Kantian categorical imperative, based on an axciom of duty; but an imperative based on existential recognition. For Buber, his meditation led to abstraction—and the tragic results of that (in his treatment of the Other) led him back, philosophically, to a modified conjoined dualism. It need not have.

Hope all is well with you and yours, old friend.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby

visted, do you think inscrutable nicknames and diversionary avatars facilitate the anonymity Martin Buber describes?

I think they can. With my re-subscription, my somewhat scrutable avatar has returned.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You are my opportunity to reveal me to me and thee. We are conversation. Conversation is an art. I and Thou perform each other as well or as badly as skill and circumstance permit. It's also nice to learn another language.

By the way you might want to read Ricoeur on narrative identity.

Agreed. Some of us are able to enact such conversation with one another on here; but not, it seems, everyone--or with everyone. Such conversation carries an intimacy that is often difficult in a forum like this.

How're the family, by the way?

Originally posted by Tygert
I find it very difficult to respect people who say things like Jews ruin people's lives.

As do I. Bigotry, I think, not only reduces the Other to an “It”, the bigot is also reducing him/herself to an it (albeit subconsciously). That does not mean that it cannot be dangerous, nor that it does not call for a response. It means that you do not allow yourself to descend to that level—even in war. If you do, then the operative word-pair becomes “It-It”.

To put it simplistically: fight the bigotry, and the bigot—but be better.

That’s all too brief, but I am still thinking about it.

Originally posted by vistesd
Agreed. Some of us are able to enact such conversation with one another on here; but not, it seems, everyone--or with everyone. Such conversation carries an intimacy that is often difficult in a forum like this.

How're the family, by the way?

Family's well. The boys did Tashlikh yesterday ... It's been an interesting slipstream, two little goyim at a Jewish school in Cape Town. The youngest tells me he wants to be buried in Israel ... You and your partner are well too I trust.

Originally posted by vistesd
Yes, but there's no sweat in those words, and they can imply a retreat into abstraction. When someone is hungry and has naught to eat, that is not the moment to teach metaphysics; when one is wounded and suffering, that is not the moment to teach the eightfold path. In such moments, first heal—then teach.

Do you know the story behind Buber's writ ...[text shortened]... njoined[/i] dualism. It need not have.

Hope all is well with you and yours, old friend.

We agree in full, my vistesd; be well, my friend😵

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Family's well. The boys did Tashlikh yesterday ... It's been an interesting slipstream, two little goyim at a Jewish school in Cape Town. The youngest tells me he wants to be buried in Israel ... You and your partner are well too I trust.

yes we are, thank you. This year we moved from the country to the town, and I am adjusting to a more "civilized" lifestyle. One of the casualties was my collection of books: no room for all of them in the apartment; almost every day I find myself looking for a volume that I'm sure i wouldn't have purged from the shelves. :'(

Originally posted by black beetle
We agree in full, my vistesd; be well, my friend😵

Yes, we have always been, as it were, the two blades of the same pair of scissors. You take care, too. 🙂

Originally posted by vistesd
As do I. Bigotry, I think, not only reduces the Other to an “It”, the bigot is also reducing him/herself to an it (albeit subconsciously). That does not mean that it cannot be dangerous, nor that it does not call for a response. It means that you do not allow yourself to descend to that level—even in war. If you do, then the operative word-pair becomes “ ...[text shortened]... gotry, and the bigot—but be better.

That’s all too brief, but I am still thinking about it.

My mum's favourite comforting phrases are "Rise above it." and "Let it go."

I try to do this whenever possible.

Originally posted by Tygert
I find it very difficult to respect people who say things like Jews ruin people's lives.

I've never heard anyone say that, and I don't see the relevance to my post.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Michel Thomas, then I'll see.

You'll appreciate the Four Conditionals in the Koine Greek, especially in comparison with Contemporary English Usage.