01 May 07
Originally posted by whodeyFirst of all, by any Jewish standard, Jesus did not fulfill the role of Messiah -- one who raises
I think the most striking arguements revolve around the prophesies mentioned. I have mentioned Daniel 9:24-27 on more than one occasion in which the prediction of the coming of the Messiah is fortold. When one reads the prophesy, however, it seems abstract and hard to understand because we simply do not talk about such things in this way today. However, it has been interpreted to mean that the Messiah was fortold to come during the life of Christ.
up the Jewish people and liberates Israel from oppression. It is only an utter reinterpretation of the
term that anyone could possibly use the claim that Daniel 'foretold' of Jesus. This is why the Jewish
scholars balk at the use of the term in correspondence to Jesus -- He didn't do what a 'Messiah'
ought to do (as far as the OT authors defined it). Sure, you can say 'Well, he freed us from spiritual
bondage,' or whatever but, again, it requires a very liberal understanding of the 'prophecy' which
undermines any evidentiary weight it might offer a person.
Second of all, many of the 'prophecies' in the Bible that 'came true' were written after the fact.
This is not peculiar to Christian Scripture; Isaiah (composed by no fewer than three and possibly
as many as six authors) is riddled with 'predictions' written well after the fact. And so, I find it
pretty unimpressive to for an author in the post-Temple period to write, 'Jesus said that the Temple
would fall,' because the author already knew the event happened and had a distinct interest in
making Jesus look good. More telling are the prophecies that didn't come true, such as Jesus'
claim in St Luke 21:25-33 --
There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay,
perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what
is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the
Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen,
stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand....Consider the fig tree and all
the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now
near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my works will not pass away.
Now, you can argue that Jesus was speaking metaphorically, but remember He was speaking to an
audience. He was telling them 'Be ready!' If He wasn't wrong, then He was at the very least deceptive
in using the familiar second person plural rather than referring to a distant future, in saying 'this
generation'
when He really meant 'Humankind' altogether. C.S. Lewis, a devout Christian, himself said that this
was the most embarrassing verse in Scripture (21:32, that is).
Thirdly, the so-called predictions that were used midrashically to validate Jesus' actions are hardly
probative. 'Not a bone will be broken' or 'for his vesture they cast lots' or that Jesus asked for wine
to fulfill Scripture. The OT is a long text, and the Psalms are pretty esoteric; it's not hard to look
at any hero's life and see a verse here and there that qualify, or, like above, to have Jesus conveniently
do something that ties into an obscure verse. This was a known, well-recognized, and well-documented
technique used by Jewish writers.
So, I hardly find any of these arguments striking, especially since charlatan Christians (most notably
Adventists) have been trying to scare people into believing Jesus is on his way imminently for the
past 100+ years.
Nemesio
01 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyOMFG.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/daniel_924-27.htm
I just read that site. Are you bloody serious? You think that prophesy has any currency whatsoever?!
Seveny weeks are decreed for your people and for your holy city: Then transgression will stop and sin
will end, guilt will be expiated, everlasting justice will be introduced, vision and prophecy ratified, and
a most holy will be anointed. Know and understand this: From the utterance of the word that Jerusalem
was to be rebuilt until one who is anointed and a leader, there shall be seven weeks. During sixty-
two weeks it shall be rebuilt, with streets and trenches, in time of affliction. After sixty-two weeks
an anointed shall be cut down when he does not possess the city; and the people of a leader who
will come shall destroy the sanctuary. Then the end shall come like a torrent; until the end there
shall be war, the desolation that is decreed. For one week he shall make a firm compact with the
many; half the week he shall abolish sacrifice and oblation; on the temple wing shall be the horrible
abomination until the ruin that is decreed is poured out upon the horror.
In your own words -- not cutting and pasting from other places -- in a paragraph or two, WTF does
this predict?
Nemesio
01 May 07
Originally posted by amannionYes. You clearly have never read nor studied the Bible (KJV - the one directly translated from the Hebrew and Greek scripts), or you would see that you are comparing apples with oranges. The Bible has literally THOUSANDS of prophesies and MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO COME TRUE. Then there are the rest that people (usually atheists) try to disprove. BUT THERE IS ALWAYS A LOGICAL EXPLANATION, and CREDIBLE EVIDENCE that the remaining "unproved prophesies" were actually prophesied correctly. It would take many lifetimes to go over each prophecy and try to give proof etc. that it is true.
Now: I predict the Great Green Hamburgler will one day appear to save the world from the ravages of evil.
Hundreds of years from now: A man exists who does stuff.
Later: The followers of this man liked him a lot. They want to hype him up. They begin calling him the Great Green Hamburgler. They go back through old texts and find a prediction that he wo ...[text shortened]... as prophesied. Hallelujah. He was indeed the Great Green Hamburgler.
Any problems with this?
But you sit there with your Sunday-school-level knowledge of the Bible and mock what you don't understand. You make ONE PREDICTION, and then expect it to be equal to a book FULL of predictions that ALL CAME TRUE. That alone is proof enough that the Bible IS the Perfect, Holy, Infallible Word of God, as it claims to be.
01 May 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherYeah right.
Yes. You clearly have never read nor studied the Bible (KJV - the one directly translated from the Hebrew and Greek scripts), or you would see that you are comparing apples with oranges. The Bible has literally THOUSANDS of prophesies and MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO COME TRUE. Then there are the rest that people (usually atheists) try to disprove. ...[text shortened]... proof enough that the Bible IS the Perfect, Holy, Infallible Word of God, as it claims to be.
Utter rubbish.
My example was trite, that's true, but I think nicely sums up your pretty pathetic attempts. This notion of prophesies come true is ridiculous - you might as well start on Nostradamus.
Any fool can look at something someone has written and then claim it to proipehsy some past event - look at the attempts to claim that Nostradamus preducted the assasinations of the Kennedys.
That hardly qualifies the bible as some work of divine creation.
01 May 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherSomebody get out the tranquilizer gun.
Yes. You clearly have never read nor studied the Bible (KJV - the one directly translated from the Hebrew and Greek scripts), or you would see that you are comparing apples with oranges. The Bible has literally THOUSANDS of prophesies and MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO COME TRUE. Then there are the rest that people (usually atheists) try to disprove. ...[text shortened]... proof enough that the Bible IS the Perfect, Holy, Infallible Word of God, as it claims to be.
01 May 07
One of the many errors that you are making that even most Christians don't understand about the Bible is this:
There are multiple dispensational timelines. The only timeline that was not talked about nor prophesied was what is called the "grace period", the period that we are in. When it was finally presented in the Bible (New Testament) it was referred to as the "mystery". "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 1 Co 2:7-8. It was kept a secret because if the "princes of this world" (which are the fallen angels and the devil) knew what God was doing (saving the Jews and Gentiles alike..."The Mystery"...and providing a worthy sacrifice) they wouldn't have crucified the Lord, thus making it impossible for gentiles and Jews to be saved by grace. Without Christ’s' death the Jews would still be under the Old Testament conditions (salvation by works), and the Gentiles would still have to go through the Jews in order to get saved.
This "mystery" is an INTERUPTION of the Old Testament prophesies. It is an undetermined period of time that paused all Biblical prophecy. The "Seventieth Week of Daniel" is yet to come - thus all of the prophesies haven’t come to fruition. This is one of the reasons why the book of Daniel is considered one of the most complicated books of the Bible.
01 May 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherAh yes ... blah blah blah mystery blah blah blah unknowable blah blah blah hidden blah blah blah secret blah blah blah ... of course, how stupid of me, you're right, the bible is the infallible word of god, without any question ...
One of the many errors that you are making that even most Christians don't understand about the Bible is this:
There are multiple dispensational timelines. The only timeline that was not talked about nor prophesied was what is called the "grace period", the period that we are in. When it was finally presented in the Bible (New Testament) it was refe ...[text shortened]... he book of Daniel is considered one of the most complicated books of the Bible.
01 May 07
Here is a link to a "Dispensational Timeline" that I found, but when I tried to click on the "interactive timeline" it didn't go anywhere. If anyone wants to look into it more (ya know, just to bash it) you could probably write them and ask them to get it up and going again.
http://www.graceimpact.org/rightdv.html
01 May 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherThat's the beauty of a language so open to interpretation. Whenever an inconvenient point is raised, you simply search for an interpretation that is more favorable to your position. Once your desired conclusion is reached, the language magically assumes concreteness, and you can claim that a precise prophecy has been made.
Ok, after doing my own study on this issue I have come to the conclusion that the Bible was indeed accurate in using the terms "father" and "son". The Hebrew words used for "father" and "son" in the book of Daniel can also mean, in the Hebrew language, "predecessor" and/or "forerunner". Thus, the Bible was not in error, only mans interpretation - once a ...[text shortened]... why the Bible is wrong - "For starters" - ...what are some other supposed errors?
Forgive me if I feel no further need to quote sources, nor take your fairy-tale beliefs seriously.
01 May 07
Originally posted by amannionOnce again, we can always count on amannion to give us our hourly share of mockery!
Ah yes ... blah blah blah mystery blah blah blah unknowable blah blah blah hidden blah blah blah secret blah blah blah ... of course, how stupid of me, you're right, the bible is the infallible word of god, without any question ...
I am NOT claiming that my lack of knowledge of the Bible is "unknowable", a "secret", and a "mystery". The Bible ITSELF refers to a "mystery"; and it is a logical fact that if a book (whether Infallible or not) tells of the history of mankind, from the beginning to the end, there are obviously going to be things talked about that haven't happened yet - thus making them "mysteries" to us! That is why we don't throw out the baby with the bath water, but instead study it out to see if it truly is "rubbish".
01 May 07
Originally posted by SwissGambitFirst of all, we were not talking about a prophecy, we were talking about what some people think is a mistake in the book of Daniel.
That's the beauty of a language so open to interpretation. Whenever an inconvenient point is raised, you simply search for an interpretation that is more favorable to your position. Once your desired conclusion is reached, the language magically assumes concreteness, and you can claim that a precise prophecy has been made.
Forgive me if I feel no further need to quote sources, nor take your fairy-tale beliefs seriously.
I was pointing out that the word "father" and "son" also means “predecessor" and/or "forerunner". I don’t care if you think the Hebrew language provides too many descriptions for one word. The Bible still only has one true interpretation, and I found it. 🙂
01 May 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherHappy to oblige.
Once again, we can always count on amannion to give us our hourly share of mockery!
I am NOT claiming that my lack of knowledge of the Bible is "unknowable", a "secret", and a "mystery". The Bible ITSELF refers to a "mystery"; and it is a logical fact that if a book (whether Infallible or not) tells of the history of mankind, from the beginning to t ...[text shortened]... aby with the bath water, but instead study it out to see if it truly is "rubbish".
Studying the bible is fine - I'm all for the study of any literary work. But when that 'study' boils down to unquestioning devotion and supporting arguments of an entirely circular kind, my patience ends.
01 May 07
Originally posted by NemesioTo say that the Messiah has not fulfilled ALL of the prophesies concerning him both Christian and Jew agree. What is not agreed upon, however, is the number of times he will come in fulfilling those prophesies. In fact, there is considerable speculation within the Christian faith as to whether Christ will come several more times via the rapture and then resurrection.
First of all, by any Jewish standard, Jesus did not fulfill the role of Messiah -- one who raises
up the Jewish people and liberates Israel from oppression. It is only an utter reinterpretation of the
term that anyone could possibly use the claim that Daniel 'foretold' of Jesus. This is why the Jewish
scholars balk at the use of the term in corre ...[text shortened]... s is on his way imminently for the
past 100+ years.
Nemesio
For me, however, one can ridicule the prophesy all day long and it does not impress me in the least. Atheists back up thier views to support their views and Christians do the same. In effect, ANYTHING can be explained or be explained away. I am sure you could even present a convincing arguement that men did not really land on the moon but was, in fact, a Hollywood production. However, the fact still remains that the people who should have been experts in interpreting the prophesy were the rabbis who interpreted it as meaning that the Messiah should have come during the time of Christ. As painful as it is for those who are not of faith, it is an HISTORICAL FACT. I am more impressed with sources with an unbiased origin than of biased origin. Again, hisotircally Daniel has been proven to be older than the time of Christ. Christ was proven to walk the earth when he did. The Tulmud is a historical document hundreds of years after the time of Christ which point to the prophesy meaning that the Messiah should have come during the time of Christ. If one maintains the Jewish line, however, the quesiton must be asked. Why does the Messiah tarry? Why did he not come when foretold to have come?
01 May 07
Originally posted by SharpeMotherYou were never here to debate. You were only here to assert your surety in your own belief.
First of all, we were not talking about a prophecy, we were talking about what some people think is a mistake in the book of Daniel.
I was pointing out that the word "father" and "son" also means “predecessor" and/or "forerunner". I don’t care if you think the Hebrew language provides too many descriptions for one word. The Bible still only has one true interpretation, and I found it. 🙂
02 May 07
Originally posted by amannionIs he indeed green?
Now: I predict the Great Green Hamburgler will one day appear to save the world from the ravages of evil.
Hundreds of years from now: A man exists who does stuff.
Later: The followers of this man liked him a lot. They want to hype him up. They begin calling him the Great Green Hamburgler. They go back through old texts and find a prediction that he wo ...[text shortened]... as prophesied. Hallelujah. He was indeed the Great Green Hamburgler.
Any problems with this?