IF GOD EXISTS

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Nordlys: "The god of the old testament seems to be quite worried about humans becoming godlike ...

Only if humans try to be "God-like" in a way God disapproves off, meaning if they chose to enter into a competitive relationship with Him. In this sense there is absolutely no difference between God in the Old or the New Testament.


Nordlys ...[text shortened]... but only by acknowledging Him as our Lord and Saviour and obeying and loving Him. He is the Way.

Sounds like a byast view, as it sounds like you're a believer

Originally posted by Alpha10
I personally think the bible is very contradictory.

Example: Pride, one of the seven deadly sins, but God created us to worship him. Isn't that pride?

Another example, taken from George Carlin: God loves us, but people die? People starve, suffer, get raped and murdered.

Alpha10: "Example: Pride, one of the seven deadly sins, but God created us to worship him. Isn't that pride?"

No, because God cannot enter into a mimetic competitive relationship with Himself. That is satan's occupation.

The above grave error can often be found in secularist reasoning, even among distinguished philosophers and logicians ..... * cough cough * ...... They simply look upon God as some super human being or some Santa Claus equipped with the three O's, Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence and Omniscience, conveniently forgetting God's Omnipresence on top of it all.

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Sounds like a byast view, as it sounds like you're a believer

I am indeed a believer. However, I do not draw the conclusion I am biased because of this fact ..... 😉

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I am indeed a believer. I do not however draw the conclusion I am biased because of this fact ..... 😉

Well think about it, you're always going to formulate arguements, ideas etc that stem from the belief tha there is a God and one with a Christian ideology, if you believe in God if you're Christian how could you not be byast when it comes to debates on God. Its the same if you're a non-believer you're byast.

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Well think about it, you're always going to formulate arguements, ideas etc that stem from the belief tha there is a God and one with a Christian ideology, if you believe in God if you're Christian how could you not be byast when it comes to debates on God. Its the same if you're a non-believer you're byast.

I understand what you are trying to say, Vladamir,

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I understand what you are trying to say, Vladamir,

So surely only an agnostic could be truly unbyast, if an unbyast view in anything ever exists, complicated creatures that we are 😉

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
So surely only an agnostic could be truly unbyast, if an unbyast view in anything ever exists, complicated creatures that we are 😉

An agnostic would be biassed to his/her agnosticism. I don't think you get anything like "unbiassed" when it comes to religion.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
No, because God cannot enter into a mimetic competitive relationship with Himself. That is satan's occupation.

What does this have to do with pride?

Originally posted by bbarr
What does this have to do with pride?

First of all it needs to be said that the Deadly Sin of Pride does not refer to the meaning of the term "pride" we use every day. For instance if you are proud to have passed your exams, than this hasn't got anything to do with the deadly sin we call Pride. Being proud of your achievements or being proud of your family members doesn't consitute the Deadly Sin of Pride either.

Very excessive arrogance comes closer to the real meaning of the Deadly sin of Pride.

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"Sin creates [an inclination] to sin; it engenders vice by repetition of the same acts. This results in perverse inclinations which cloud conscience and corrupt the concrete judgment of good and evil. Thus sin tends to reproduce itself and reinforce itself, but it cannot destroy the moral sense at its root."

Cathechism of the Roman Catholic Church. Para 1865.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm#II


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http://www.whitestonejournal.com/seven/

Inscribed in ancient times at the Oracle at Delphi: "Know thyself." Self-knowledge follows closely behind the knowledge of God, and self-knowledge for anyone means knowledge of sin. "My own heart shows me the way of the ungodly." Scripture says we are all sinners, and we don't mind as long as the sins are nameless and faceless. When we name a sin found in ourselves (by Grace) it is as though we are confronted in the back alleys of our souls with furtive saboteurs and muggers who seek to prevent our union with God. The sudden self-revelation of a serious fault is one thing: the discovery of a deadly sin which we hate very much in others is worse. It is like finding out a spouse is unfaithful, or worse, that we have been blindly unfaithful to the Spouse of our soul.

The following pages on the deadly sins may lead to horrible discoveries. Bear in mind:

Friends will almost never volunteer this information.
If they do, we will not accept it.

!! God forgives anything, even repeatedly, so do not be afraid. !!


A combination of good spiritual reading (nothing too recent), nearly constant prayer, and reflection on the repetitive patterns of life works well for naming our sins. Remarks made in job performance reviews and conversations with people who dislike us are especially revealing. Our enemies usually lack the false charity to deny our sins. No wonder we are called to love them.

The human capacity for self-delusion is nearly limitless. We have all seen people claim great spirituality but do evil things and then ignore or rationalize them. Somehow we think we are immune to this phenomenon.

http://www.whitestonejournal.com/seven/

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"In Christianity, pride (or vanity) is the excessive belief in one's own abilities that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is listed as one of the seven deadly sins, as superbia. Pride is also condemned in Hinduism. Ravana, an evil king who was killed by Rama, avatar of Vishnu, exhibited deadly sins of pride and lust.

Arrogance is the act of obtaining rights or advantages, including merely rhetorical advantages, through violence or threats of violence, or through verbal violence. Arrogance is as much an aspect of aggression as it is of pretension, which is unwarranted pride. An arrogant person is not merely unjustifiably confident in their own ability and value, but one actively seeking to cow or belittle other "lesser" people in order to achieve their ends."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride

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http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm


"Pride

Pride is the excessive love of one's own excellence. It is ordinarily accounted one of the seven capital sins. St. Thomas, however, endorsing the appreciation of St. Gregory, considers it the queen of all vices, and puts vainglory in its place as one of the deadly sins. In giving it this pre-eminence he takes it in a most formal and complete signification. He understands it to be that frame of mind in which a man, through the love of his own worth, aims to withdraw himself from subjection to Almighty God, and sets at naught the commands of superiors. It is a species of contempt of God and of those who bear his commission. Regarded in this way, it is of course mortal sin of a most heinous sort. Indeed St. Thomas rates it in this sense as one of the blackest of sins. By it the creature refuses to stay within his essential orbit; he turns his back upon God, not through weakness or ignorance, but solely because in his self-exaltation he is minded not to submit. His attitude has something Satanic in it, and is probably not often verified in human beings. A less atrocious kind of pride is that which imples one to make much of oneself unduly and without sufficient warrant, without however any disposition to cast off the dominion of the Creator. This may happen, according to St. Gregory, either because a man regards himself as the source of such advantages as he may discern in himself, or because, whilst admitted that God has bestowed them, he reputes this to have been in response to his own merits, or because he attributes to himself gifts which he has not; or, finally, because even when these are real he unreasonably looks to be put ahead of others. Supposing the conviction indicated in the first two instances to be seriously entertained, the sin would be a grievous one and would have the added guilt of heresy. Ordinarily, however, this erroneous persuasion does not exist; it is the demeanour that is reprehensible. The last two cases generally speaking are not held to constitute grave offences. This is not true, however, whenever a man's arrogance is the occasion of great harm to another, as, for instance, his undertaking the duties of a physician without the requisite knowledge. The same judgment is to be rendered when pride has given rise to such temper of soul that in the pursuit of its object one is ready of anything, even mortal sin. Vainglory, ambition, and presumption are commonly enumerated as the offspring vices of pride, because they are well adapted to serve its inordinate aims. Of themselves they are venial sins unless some extraneous consideration puts them in the ranks of grievous transgressions. It should be noted that presumption does not here stand for the sin against hope. It means the desire to essay what exceeds one's capacity."


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Why do we need to know?

If I would pick one reason, it would be this.

Eccl 3:11
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
(NKJ)

God has set eternity in the heart of man. That is, man wishes to go on. To not die. To live forever.........

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Sounds like a byast view, as it sounds like you're a believer

EVERYONE'S view is biased, whether they realize it or not. You, me, Ivanhoe.... all of us have been influenced in one direction or another. Our best hope is to try and be as objective as possible.

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Why do we need to know?

Because its in our nature to want to know. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Vladamir no1
Why do we need to know?

We GET to know! When my kids were born, I wanted them to know I was there so they could rest comfortably. I wanted them to know me, as a source of love. I think God wants us to know that He is there so that we can receive His love and His benefits.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Nordlys: "The god of the old testament seems to be quite worried about humans becoming godlike ...

Only if humans try to be "God-like" in a way God disapproves off, meaning if they chose to enter into a competitive relationship with Him. In this sense there is absolutely no difference between God in the Old or the New Testament.


Nordlys ...[text shortened]... acknowledging Him, Emmanuel, as our Lord and Saviour and obeying and loving Him. He is the Way.

Ivanhoe: "Only if humans try to be "God-like" in a way God disapproves off, meaning if they chose to enter into a competitive relationship with Him."

If god has those 4 O's you mentioned in another post, why is he so worried about humans entering a competitive relationship with him? I can imagine he would be amused, like you might be amused if a small child tries to outrun you, or like a GM might be amused if a chess newbie comes and says "I vill crush u".

Originally posted by chinking58
I think God wants us to know that He is there so that we can receive His love and His benefits.

If that's true, he is doing a bad job. You may say that those who don't believe there is a god are close-minded and wouldn't believe even if he'd show himself. But there are many people who very much want to believe and who hope that there is a god, and yet they can't believe because god doesn't show himself, and they don't have enough evidence. And of course there are all those people who have never heard of god. If he really wanted us to know he is there, why doesn't he let us know in a way we can understand? If parents want their children to know they are there, they don't show it by going away (maybe leaving a book which says they are there), do they?