Originally posted by amannionApplause, applause! We no longer need fear the Hokeyman!
Why is the Christian - or theistic - position taken as the given, that atheists must refute in some way? What I mean is, why is it obvious that God places some meaning on our existence, where an absence of God does not?
It's certainly not obvious to me as a practising atheist.
I don't need to rely on some external reference to provide my life with meani ...[text shortened]... ribute something.
Not think nice hokey thoughts about some imaginary supreme being ...
Originally posted by rwingettTell me, if there is no after life, what does meaning, mean?
Rules and morals are social fabrications, yes, but it does not follow that they mean nothing. They mean quite a bit toward living a meaningful life in the here and now. I repeat, the point of life is to make your own life meaningful now. Use the time you've got with full knowledge that each moment is fleeting and cannot redeemed for some speculative afterlife.
After all, the fool and the wise both die, if there is nothing afterwards
they equally become nothing, and all that either gained is now lost to
them, both are now nothing once dead. If this life is all there is, than
there is no meaning; it is just taste for the moment, and the moment
is gone. Dust in the wind and all that jazz... The kind and the mean,
the loyal and the traitor, the helpful and the selfish, they are go on
to nothing, where is the meaning in nothingness if this brief life
is all there is?
Kelly
Originally posted by Vladamir no1But life is meaningless so why on earth should we try to combat nihilism ?
If there is no god and we are but creatures of chance through a cosmic eruption (the big bang), then surely everything is nihilistic ergo nothing matters. Without turning back to god (as the German saying states, 'All gods must die'😉 how are we to combat nihilism?
Does the existence of God bring meaning to life or the existance of meaning bring God to life ?
How many people only believe in God because the fear that thier lives will have no meaning and therefore no value if they loose thier faith? I have met Christians before who gave that arguement as a reason for faith.
Many people strive to find meaning in thier lives and often only find it only by believing in something they cant explain or proove, sometimes its God sometimes it Love sometimes its fame. Many people feel that it is important to be remembered after they die. Even Christians often desire this even though there is no teaching in the Church which supports or encourages it as far as I am aware.
Very few Christians dedicate thier lives to what the Bible teaches as being the most important things and most meaningfull things. I conclude from this that most peoples meaning in life is not derived from thier religion but is inherent in themselves and they will often adjust thier beliefs to suit what they understand to be the meaning in thier lives.
Originally posted by KellyJayThat would ahve to be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard ... even more so for the fact that you probably share it with many other Christians.
Tell me, if there is no after life, what does meaning, mean?
After all, the fool and the wise both die, if there is nothing afterwards
they equally become nothing, and all that either gained is now lost to
them, both are now nothing once dead. If this life is all there is, than
there is no meaning; it is just taste for the moment, and the moment
is g ...[text shortened]... on
to nothing, where is the meaning in nothingness if this brief life
is all there is?
Kelly
Why should an acceptance of nothing after life, make life meaningless. On the contrary, my belief in my (and your) complete annihilation upon death makes my life incredibly meaningful - it's all I have.
Originally posted by KellyJayThis topic is like a merry-go-round with you. It is a sleight of hand to say that IF death is merely a permanent end to consciousness THEN all actions become meaningless. I think I already posted an example from Nagle concerning "chains of justification" that terminate fully within this natural life:
Tell me, if there is no after life, what does meaning, mean?
After all, the fool and the wise both die, if there is nothing afterwards
they equally become nothing, and all that either gained is now lost to
them, both are now nothing once dead. If this life is all there is, than
there is no meaning; it is just taste for the moment, and the moment
is g ...[text shortened]... on
to nothing, where is the meaning in nothingness if this brief life
is all there is?
Kelly
Suppose your daughter or son unknowingly reaches for a piping hot stovetop. More or less instinctively, you attempt to avert the situation. Why do you think that is, KJ? Now according to you, if there is no state of consciousness beyond our natural death, then it makes no difference at all whether or not you prevent your child from getting seriously burned. Well, I think it is very clear that you are mistaken. There are real consequences that depend on the actions you commit, and it is often the case that such actions require no further justification beyond your present deliberations. They certainly don't require external justification that stems from eschatological considerations.
Originally posted by KellyJayThis is hogwash. The point to life is defined by the fact that it is all we have. We need to act in a way in which we can contribute to society and our fellow humans or there would be no point. Our interactions, social hierarchy, natural pleasures, are the very things that make up the boundaries of existence. To say that life has no meaning because we die, is ridiculous, it's like saying there's no point listening to a piece of music because it will end, or there's no point eating because the meal is a set amount and will be over, or there's no point in playing a game because it will eventually be full-time. Nonsense. It is the listening, dining and playing which are the very essence of these things; so too with life.
Tell me, if there is no after life, what does meaning, mean?
After all, the fool and the wise both die, if there is nothing afterwards
they equally become nothing, and all that either gained is now lost to
them, both are now nothing once dead. If this life is all there is, than
there is no meaning; it is just taste for the moment, and the moment
is g ...[text shortened]... on
to nothing, where is the meaning in nothingness if this brief life
is all there is?
Kelly
The absurdity of our existence, according to Camus, stems from the fact that we are conscious beings who, by the very nature of our consciousness, seek to find value, purpose and meaning in a world where such are not given, and in the face of our own death. Therefore, our choice is either (1) to live a valueless, purposeless, meaningless life (nihilism)—if that is in fact possible; Camus would ask, “Why not then end it and commit suicide?”—or (2) as rwingett said, to undertake the (Sisyphean) task to make our own value, purpose and meaning, knowing that is what we are doing.
Now, if one says that the only thing to do is to enjoy this life as much as possible, then that is a statement of value and purpose and meaning (in the broad sense in which I took rwingett to intend it). If one lives a simple Epicurean life based on a calculus of pleasure/pain, that is a path of value and purpose and meaning. If one lives according to a Taoist concept of some sort of harmony with the way of nature, that is a path of value and purpose and meaning. I think how we choose is as much an aesthetic project as a rational one.
Those of us who honestly do not believe in an “afterlife” of continued individual existence (or one whose nature depends on some system of reward or punishment), cannot simply choose to believe because such a belief may provide a ready-made package of value, purpose and meaning. We have no choice but to face the end of our individual existence. The existential “question of nothingness” raised by Hal is really the question: “In the face of the eventual ending of my individual existence, how do I choose to live?” As most of you know, I choose to spend a good deal of time wandering about in religious texts and “sacred myths”—that is simply part of the aesthetic scheme of my life as I choose to live it.
What about people for whom one might be tempted to say that their aesthetic scheme of life includes murder, rape, torture? I think that their “choice” has been one of nihilism (taking account of the fact that much or all such behavior might be pathological). But, in any event, their choice is in stark conflict with my “moral aesthetic;” and frankly, even if there were no other, more objective bases for morality, I would still be compelled to combat such behaviors in my world. If there are people who actually desire to murder, rape and torture—and the only thing preventing them is fear of hell or desire for heaven—then I hope they keep their beliefs. I suspect such people are rare; perhaps I’m wrong.
Originally posted by StarrmanOur interactions, social hierarchy, natural pleasures, are the very things that make up the boundaries of existence. To say that life has no meaning because we die, is ridiculous, it's like saying there's no point listening to a piece of music because it will end, or there's no point eating because the meal is a set amount and will be over, or there's no point in playing a game because it will eventually be full-time. Nonsense. It is the listening, dining and playing which are the very essence of these things; so too with life.
This is hogwash. The point to life is defined by the fact that it is all we have. We need to act in a way in which we can contribute to society and our fellow humans or there would be no point. Our interactions, social hierarchy, natural pleasures, are the very things that make up the boundaries of existence. To say that life has no meaning becau ...[text shortened]... listening, dining and playing which are the very essence of these things; so too with life.
Well said, and rec’d. I’ll take it as a necessary addendum to my own statements (with due attribution by way of this post).
Originally posted by amannionIf you can engage your brain, I'm asking something of you that
That would ahve to be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard ... even more so for the fact that you probably share it with many other Christians.
Why should an acceptance of nothing after life, make life meaningless. On the contrary, my belief in my (and your) complete annihilation upon death makes my life incredibly meaningful - it's all I have.
requires an answer, if you can only insult me instead of thinking
something through, then don't bother responding. If all there is
to life is the here and now, it does not matter one wit the meaning
you place on anything, as far as it being better or worse than
anyone else's meaning or purpose or drive they all go the same
end, they do the same thing no matter what it is they are in the
end. There is only meaning for the moment nothing more, meaning
becomes void after death. The fact that you can say another's
death makes your life meaningful, speaks for itself.
Kelly