04 Mar 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadI think every believer struggles with the notion of hell. In fact, people like Robbie simply dismiss it as unbiblical. For me, however, hell is just an extension to the already existing suffering we see today. I suppose then the only difference between hell on earth and hell in the after life is by degree and duration. Biblically we are told that God wishes that NONE should perish which tells me he feels the same way about the matter.
So, given your thoughts above, can I take it that if you were God, there would be no hell?[/b]
So why then is there a hell, whether it be torment or simple nonexistence? As we both concur, the goal should be to eliminate suffering, so if sin is the source, then sin must be erradicated. How then can you erradicate sin with those who insist on pursuing sin? It seems to me the only thing that can be done is either to violate their free will and force them not to sin, or seperate those who choose sin from those who choose to walk in the law of love.
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by whodeyI agree, I am open to suffering as a result of my love. I totally disagree with where you think you are going with that. ie I don't believe most suffering is a direct result of love, nor do I believe most suffering as a result of love is necessary.
Your son may never reject you. However, he will undoubtidly do things that disappoint you and in the end one of you must die. So at some point because you have chosen to love each other you have opened yourself up to suffering on some level.
04 Mar 10
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Originally posted by whodeyActually the Bible is full of stories of suffering and many of them involve faith not sin.
So as we see, sin and suffering go hand in hand Biblically.
I must also point out that a large number of them involve God causing it.
But who cares? Saying that sin and suffering go hand in hand Biblically really does nothing for this discussion.
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIf divine punishment were to be shown to fall upon the greatest evil doers then the scope for evil would be greatly reduced. People would still have free reign to commit evil, but they would have an incentive not to be the most evil. They would voluntarily temper their evil tendencies or face annihilation. And as last year's crop of most evil people are smitten, the people who had previously been second most evil would now be facing imminent annihilation. They would have an incentive to temper the evil ways even more. The result would be a gradual improvement of the human condition as people strive to commit fewer and fewer evils.
You'd model the universe after whack-a-mole?
If the rain falls equally upon both the righteous and the wicked, then there is no incentive for self-improvement. If the rain falls exclusively upon the most wicked, then the motivation toward self-improvement is direct.
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by whodeyYou are really getting yourself tied in a knot here aren't you. No wonder you cant imagine your own God scenario, you are too confused about the one you believe in already.
Christ said that through him we can break the chains of sin in our lives even though we have a sin nature. In short, through Christ we can overcome our chronic sinning as if we were slaves to any one particular sin.
One moment sin is necessary for love, the next moment it is part of your nature that you don't like, and want to overcome.
One moment you are talking about free will, and sin is a free will choice not to love, next moment we are slaves to sin.
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by whodeyInvalid/fictionalized (though entertaining) philosophical speculation
If you were God, how would you run things? Would you punish evil doers or would you turn a blind eye? If you did punish evil doers, how would you punish them? Would you erradicate free will? Who would go to heaven and who would go to hell? Would there even be a hearven or hell?
from a creature position of utter weakness and incapacity noted.
04 Mar 10
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Originally posted by rwingettSo essentially you would implement the criminal justice system but with greater accuracy, worse sentences for serious crimes and no need for expensive lawyers.
If divine punishment were to be shown to fall upon the greatest evil doers then the scope for evil would be greatly reduced. People would still have free reign to commit evil, but they would have an incentive not to be the most evil. They would voluntarily temper their evil tendencies or face annihilation. And as last year's crop of most evil people are smi ...[text shortened]... a gradual improvement of the human condition as people strive to commit fewer and fewer evils.
I on the other hand believe that the criminal justice system, though essential in our society is simultaneously a sign of the failure of the society to implement more proactive methods.
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadNot necessarily, because what I interpret as a crime would differ in many ways from the criminal justice system. Many people who now commit the most grievous crimes with the full sanction of the law would feel my divine wrath.
So essentially you would implement the criminal justice system but with greater accuracy, worse sentences for serious crimes and no need for expensive lawyers.
I on the other hand believe that the criminal justice system, though essential in our society is simultaneously a sign of the failure of the society to implement more proactive methods.
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadSalvation issue is the genetically transmitted Adamic sin nature, not personal sin. Sin was judged once and for all
You are really getting yourself tied in a knot here aren't you. No wonder you cant imagine your own God scenario, you are too confused about the one you believe in already.
One moment sin is necessary for love, the next moment it is part of your nature that you don't like, and want to overcome.
One moment you are talking about free will, and sin is a free will choice not to love, next moment we are slaves to sin.
during Christ's substitutionary spiritual death, to propitiate Divine Justice, on the cross. Routine provision is made
for restoration of fellowship (l John 1:9). Personal sin isn't even mentioned at the Great White Throne Judgement.
Edit: The single pre-salvation issue is 'What do you think of Christ?'. God respects human
volition and right of self determination. No coercion! Issue for believers is growth in grace.
................................
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by rwingettDoes that mean that you agree with God's judgement against Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, and the Amorites?
I would punish evil doers with my auto-smite capacity. Not all evildoers, though. Maybe just the 10% worst evildoers each year. You have free will to do whatever you want with the knowledge you could be smitten at year's end. In order to make room for free will I would renounce any claim to omniscience.
There would definitely not be either a heaven or a hell. You goal is to do good and live well in this life.
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by gambit3No, of course not. God is a terrible judge. Why kill the first born Egyptians? They did nothing wrong. If he wanted to have the Egyptians let the Israelites go, he should have smitten pharaoh and those responsible for keeping them in bondage. A few carefully chosen smitings would have a ripple effect through the populace. He could have gotten the desired results with a minimum amount of carnage. And so it goes down the line. If he doesn't like the way the Amorites are behaving then smite a few of the worst offenders at the top. Don't just slaughter everyone. And having bears slaughter 40+ children for calling someone 'baldy' is just wrong by any standard.
Does that mean that you agree with God's judgement against Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, and the Amorites?
04 Mar 10
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySo you believe that we get punished for something in our genes? Weird.
Salvation issue is the genetically transmitted Adamic sin nature, not personal sin. Sin was judged once and for all
during Christ's substitutionary spiritual death, to propitiate Divine Justice, on the cross. Routine provision is made
for restoration of fellowship (l John 1:9). Personal sin isn't even mentioned at the Great White Throne Judgement.
So if you were God, what would you do?