20 Aug 06
I agree with dottewell. It would have been much simpler if God had created ONLY those who would choose (freely) to believe in Him.
But I also find it interesting that "the key is God of Love...". He is supposed to be perfect, almighty, loving, merciful etc., but one wonders if He makes mistakes too?
Listen, I know this woman, a very ordinary person and very kind-hearted. She always go out of her way to help others. She loves kids. So you can imagine her joy when she was pregnant. She never missed an appointment with her doctor. And yet, in the seventh month of her pregnancy, her baby died in her womb. The doctors couldn't explain what happened. Everything way absolutely normal, at least according to the doctors. What happened? Did God make a mistake? Did He accidently killed off a sinless being and hence deprived a woman he loved of happiness? Today my sister doesn't believe in God. And so far everything is going fine! So why bother?
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyThen if it is possible for a world with free will and without sin (i.e. agents endowed with free will choose not to sin) to obtain then the question remains why your deity created this world rather than that one. Either he was powerless to or he didn't want to. Assuming that he was capable of doing it, his not wanting to would suggest that sin is good, since by your definition your god only desires that which is good.
No. In fact, Christ had free will and did not sin.
20 Aug 06
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Originally posted by dottewellExactly. The most simple proof of this is the following:
You're missing the point. He created some people who would choose (freely) to believe in him. He created some people who would choose (freely) not to believe in him. He knew at the time of creation that this would occur.
My point is that he could have created ONLY people that would choose (freely) to believe in him. By definition, this would not have jeopardised free will.
Consider all the people alive today as well as those who have already lived and died. These people can be divided into two groups, those that freely choose to believe in God and those that freely choose not to believe in God.
Call the former group, B, and the latter group, N.
To create a world where all choose to freely believe, create B and do not create N. QED.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionThe fair thing is that those that didn't choose God could have, the sad
Exactly. The most simple proof of this is the following:
Consider all the people alive today as well as those who have already lived and died. These people can be divided into two groups, those that freely choose to believe in God and those that freely choose not to believe in God.
Call the former group, B, and the latter group, N.
To create a world where all choose to freely believe, create B and do not create N. QED.
thing will be why they didn't.
Kelly
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyIf I were God I'd banish hangovers.
If you were God, what would the universe look like? Would you have created the heavens and the earth? Would you have created living beings as well as creating man? Would they be created in your image or reflect you in any way? How would you interact with that creation if you chose to create it? Would you love what you had created, hate it, or be indiffer ...[text shortened]... r would you just assume not interact with them at all and just watch amusingly on the sidelines?
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIf you can determine that God existed 'a long time ago', then by induction you can determine that He exists now, since by His very nature He is 'immortal'. What should be your motivation? A sincere search for that which is true. To my mind, the only barrier to that in this case is laziness.
Well, God supposedly exists now. If someone exists now, really wants to have a close, intimate relationship with me, and is capable of getting in contact with me, why should I have to look at ancient cryptic documents to figure out if this person existed long, long ago? It doesn't make any sense.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionThis rambling aside, I suppose I can grasp what your point was supposed to be. That God should never have allowed His creation to Fall, or actualized a world wherein the creation would fall. My question to you is: How could it be avoided?
Know anything about optimization? More specifically are you familiar with the "one-time deviation" problem in Dynamic Programming?
Either way, the point is clear enough for most of us.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionSo I think it fair to say that all the atheists here would prevent their creation from sinning while somehow preserving free will, no?
Then if it is possible for a world with free will and without sin (i.e. agents endowed with free will choose not to sin) to obtain then the question remains why your deity created this world rather than that one. Either he was powerless to or he didn't want to. Assuming that he was capable of doing it, his not wanting to would suggest that sin is good, since by your definition your god only desires that which is good.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by ckoh1965That is indeed a sad story. I know of another, however. I know of a man who was born into a poor family. He grew up poor and remained so throughout his entire life. Not only that, he was persecuted and scoffed at his entire life. In fact, he did nothing to deserve this treatment. He never even had the time to marry and have a family of his own. He never knew the love of a woman. His life was full of sorrows and he was aquinted with grief. He only had a few hand full of friends, however, at the end of his life they all abandon him as well. He then was tortured and killed on a cross. Unlike the lady in your story, however, he had no sin to did absolutly nothing to deserve such a fate. How could God permit such a thing?
I agree with dottewell. It would have been much simpler if God had created ONLY those who would choose (freely) to believe in Him.
But I also find it interesting that "the key is God of Love...". He is supposed to be perfect, almighty, loving, merciful etc., but one wonders if He makes mistakes too?
Listen, I know this woman, a very ordinary person ...[text shortened]... Today my sister doesn't believe in God. And so far everything is going fine! So why bother?
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionThat convoluted logic breaks down with the first person to go against God: Adam. Now what?
Exactly. The most simple proof of this is the following:
Consider all the people alive today as well as those who have already lived and died. These people can be divided into two groups, those that freely choose to believe in God and those that freely choose not to believe in God.
Call the former group, B, and the latter group, N.
To create a world where all choose to freely believe, create B and do not create N. QED.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by DarfiusI knew you could if you tried. It's unfortunate that they don't teach choice theory in your program. It makes examining these sorts of problems much easier.
This rambling aside, I suppose I can grasp what your point was supposed to be. That God should never have allowed His creation to Fall, or actualized a world wherein the creation would fall. My question to you is: How could it be avoided?
To answer your question (I done this in the past) all this god needed to do was create a world where everyone has free will and all free will endowed agents choose freely not to do bad things. For example, the angels presumably have the freedom to disobey god, but many of them have never done so.
If for some reason, you wish to assume that it is impossible to create a world with free will and in which no one chooses an action contrary to your god's standards, then it is only consistent for a perfect being to either create a world without free will or not create at all.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by whodeyIt's not an active ex post prevention. It's the foresight to restrict sin ex ante by creating a more perfect world (one in which all choose freely not to sin).
So I think it fair to say that all the atheists here would prevent their creation from sinning while somehow preserving free will, no?
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionSupercalifragilisticipsialadocious.
I knew you could if you tried. It's unfortunate that they don't teach choice theory in your program. It makes examining these sorts of problems much easier.
To answer your question (I done this in the past) all this god needed to do was create a world where everyone has free will and all free will endowed agents choose freely not to do bad things. ...[text shortened]... nsistent for a perfect being to either create a world without free will or not create at all.
20 Aug 06
Originally posted by telerionOriginally posted by telerion
I knew you could if you tried. It's unfortunate that they don't teach choice theory in your program. It makes examining these sorts of problems much easier.
To answer your question (I done this in the past) all this god needed to do was create a world where everyone has free will and all free will endowed agents choose freely not to do bad things. ...[text shortened]... nsistent for a perfect being to either create a world without free will or not create at all.
To answer your question (I done this in the past) all this god needed to do was create a world where everyone has free will and all free will endowed agents choose freely not to do bad things. For example, the angels presumably have the freedom to disobey god, but many of them have never done so.
Many of the angels did rebel, though. So what exactly is your point here? The situation is exactly analagous to our own. Many chose to rebel and many chose not to.
If for some reason, you wish to assume that it is impossible to create a world with free will and in which no one chooses an action contrary to your god's standards, then it is only consistent for a perfect being to either create a world without free will or not create at all.
What is the connection between being 'perfect' and having only those two options? Imperfection chosen by your creation does not affect your perfection.
And the reason I 'assume' it is impossible to create a world wherein 100% of people freely choose God is because it is. Unless He created a world with one or two people. The more people there are, the more likelihood that at least one will make the wrong choice. Also, the choices of some affect the choices of others, this is inevitable. For instance, someone accidentally running over someone else's child may be the catalyst for that person's descent into rebellion. And since God wanted to give the gift of eternal life to more than one or two people, He had to run the risk of losing some of His children to poor (but conscious) decisions on their part.