If you were no longer religious

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Perhaps thee is a place for religion if it stops sociopaths like yourself from such behaviour.

Perhaps you put it more bluntly than I would've, but I totally agree with you here. 😉

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Joel Feinberg (renowned American philosopher) had this to say about Devlin's antiquated views;

Devlin's responses to Hart's arguments "seem feeble and perfunctory" and that most readers
"will probably conclude that there is no salvaging Devlin's social disintegration thesis, his analogies
to political subversion and treason, his conception of th ...[text shortened]... ascertained, or the skimpy place he allows to natural moral change.

Devlin was a dinosaur

I am about 99.9% sure that I can find something to discredit Joel Feinberg...😴

Originally posted by FMF
Perhaps you put it more bluntly than I would've, but I totally agree with you here. 😉

I can say you are both Pagan Barbarians, or of the baser sorts, but I won't... 😉

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I can say you are both Pagan Barbarians, or of the baser sorts, but I won't... 😉

Don't take the word "sociopath" to heart; it is a harsher sounding word than what it actually means. But it does fit what you 'admitted' about yourself - hypothetically - if you were to not have your religion. Personally, I refrain from advising people to give up their religious beliefs if such beliefs help them to [a] act in a morally sound way and not harm, deceive or coerce others, and [2] if it helps them come to terms with the inevitability and finality of death or otherwise make them happy, purposeful or able to cope psychologically with (for example) the vicissitudes of life. If it's true that, if you were no longer religious, you imagine that you would be a sociopath, then I think it's maybe good for society that you are religious.

Originally posted by FMF
Don't take the word "sociopath" to heart; it is a harsher sounding word than what it actually means. But it does fit what you 'admitted' about yourself - hypothetically - if you were to not have your religion. Personally, I refrain from advising people to give up their religious beliefs if such beliefs help them to [a] act in a morally sound way and not harm, d ...[text shortened]... that you would be a sociopath, then I think it's maybe good for society that you are religious.

Well, you should pray that I continue to grow in the grace of God.😉

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Well, you should pray that I continue to grow in the grace of God.😉

I will pray that you do not lose your religious beliefs because you obviously do not have have a normal moral compass.

Originally posted by caissad4
I will pray that you do not lose your religious beliefs because you obviously do not have have a normal moral compass.

Sigh....if God would only answer your prayers!😀

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Well, you should pray that I continue to grow in the grace of God.😉

No, I think we can leave 'praying to God' to superstitious people. 😉

A portion of Watchman Nee's testimonhy about his early prayer life as a Christian.

LEARNING TO SERVE THE LORD

After being saved, I continued on in school, though I had little interest in books. Others read novels in class, but I diligently studied the Bible. [Editor's note: Although Brother Nee studied the Bible in class, he still came first in the end-of-term examinations.] Later, desiring to pursue spiritual things further, I left school and entered Dora Yu's Bible Institute in Shanghai [Editor's note: a famous lady evangelist]. However, before long she politely dismissed me, and I returned home. The reason she gave for her action was that it was inconvenient for me to stay there any longer. I realized that my flesh had not been dealt with. I was still fond of good food and fine clothing, and I enjoyed sleeping until eight o'clock in the morning. Dora Yu felt I was good material for the Lord's interest and had good prospects, but when she discovered my laziness, she sent me home.

At that time I was thoroughly disappointed and felt my future was doomed. At that time I even questioned my salvation. But surely I was saved! I even considered that I was quite good and that I had been transformed in many ways, not realizing that there was much yet to be learned and much to be dealt with. Confident that the Lord had saved me and called me, I could not be disappointed. I admitted that I was not yet good enough, but I felt that with the passing of more time I would improve.

Since the time was not ripe for me to continue my spiritual pursuits, I decided to return to school. When my schoolmates saw me, they recognized that I had changed, but I had not changed thoroughly, for I still occasionally lost my temper and did some things wrong. There were times when I seemed very much like a saved person, but at other times I seemed very much like an unsaved person. Therefore, my testimony in the school was not very powerful, and when I witnessed to Brother Weigh, he paid no heed. [Editor's note: Brother Nee's prayers and guidance finally brought Brother Weigh to the Lord.]

After I was saved, I spontaneously loved the souls of sinners and hoped that they would be saved. To this end, I began to preach the gospel and to bear testimony among my schoolmates. After nearly a year's work, however, no one was saved. I thought the more words I could speak and the more reasons I could present, the more effective I would be in saving people. But though I had much to speak concerning the Lord, my words lacked power to move the listeners.

Prayer for Others' Salvation

About this time I met a Western missionary, Miss Groves (Margaret Barber's co-worker), who asked me how many persons I had brought to the Lord in the year following my salvation. I bowed my head, hoping to forestall further questioning, and shamefully admitted in a low voice that, although I had preached the gospel to my schoolmates, they did not like to listen, and when they did listen, they would not believe. My attitude was that, since they would not heed the gospel, they would have to bear the consequences. She spoke to me frankly, "You are unable to lead people to the Lord because there is something between God and you. It may be some hidden sins not yet completely dealt with, or something for which you are indebted to someone." I admitted that such things existed, and she asked if I were willing to settle them immediately. I answered that I was willing.

She also asked how I went about bearing testimony. I replied that I pulled people in at random and began to speak, regardless of whether they were listening or not. She said, "This is not right. You must speak to God first, before you speak to people. You should pray to God, make a list of your schoolmates' names, and ask God which of them you should pray for. Pray for them daily, mentioning them by name. Then when God affords the opportunity, you should bear testimony to them."

After that conversation, I immediately began to deal with my sins by making restitution, paying debts, being reconciled with my schoolmates, and confessing offenses to others. I also entered in my notebook the names of about seventy schoolmates and began praying for them daily, mentioning their names individually before God. Sometimes I prayed for them once every hour, praying silently, even in class. When opportunity arose, I would bear testimony to them and try to persuade them to believe in the Lord Jesus. My schoolmates often said jokingly, "Mr. Preacher is coming. Let us listen to his preaching." The fact was that they had no intention to listen.

I called on Miss Groves again and said to her, "I have fully carried out your instructions. Why is it not effective?" She replied, "Do not be disappointed. Keep praying until some are saved." By the Lord's grace, I continued to pray daily. When opportunity arose, I bore testimony and preached the gospel. Thank the Lord, after several months, all but one of the seventy persons whose names were in my notebook were saved.

Copied from Watchman Nee's Testimony

www.ministrybooks,org

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p

Originally posted by sonship
A portion of Watchman Nee's testimonhy about his early prayer life as a Christian.

[quote] [b] LEARNING TO SERVE THE LORD

After being saved, I continued on in school, though I had little interest in books. Others read novels in class, but I diligently studied the Bible. [Editor's note: Although Brother Nee studied the Bible in class, he still ca ...[text shortened]... tchman Nee's Testimony [/b]

www.ministrybooks,org

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p[/b]

The OP asks: "If you completely walked away from your faith, is there anything that would change in your life?"

Originally posted by sonship
A portion of Watchman Nee's testimonhy about his early prayer life as a Christian.

[quote] [b] LEARNING TO SERVE THE LORD

After being saved, I continued on in school, though I had little interest in books. Others read novels in class, but I diligently studied the Bible. [Editor's note: Although Brother Nee studied the Bible in class, he still ca ...[text shortened]... tchman Nee's Testimony [/b]

www.ministrybooks,org

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p[/b]

Good lessons there, thank you...

Originally posted by JS357
This link reports on studies supporting the contention that strong secular institutions that value trust and compassion, especially toward strangers, can take the place of religious institutions.

http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~ara/Manuscripts/Norenzayan_Behaviour_DoesReligionMakePeopleMoral.pdf

Except that this paper is extremely light on what these "strong secular institutions" might be, or even giving examples of them, beyond "courts, police, and other contract-enforcing mechanisms". I would just ask, "Like what, specifically?"

Originally posted by sonship
A portion of Watchman Nee's testimonhy about his early prayer life as a Christian.

[quote] [b] LEARNING TO SERVE THE LORD

After being saved, I continued on in school, though I had little interest in books. Others read novels in class, but I diligently studied the Bible. [Editor's note: Although Brother Nee studied the Bible in class, he still ca ...[text shortened]... tchman Nee's Testimony [/b]

www.ministrybooks,org

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?p[/b]

sorry I nodded off

Originally posted by redbadger
sorry I nodded off

A powerful put-down indeed.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Except that this paper is extremely light on what these "strong secular institutions" might be, or even giving examples of them, beyond "courts, police, and other contract-enforcing mechanisms". I would just ask, "Like what, specifically?"

One example: It refers to the World Bank's Rule of Law Index, which, at http://data.worldjusticeproject.org/ and links therefrom, goes into as much detail as you might ever care to find about the 8 measurable factors that are used.

Such as:

Factor 1: Constraints on Government Powers
Factor 2: Absence of Corruption
Factor 3: Open Government
Factor 4: Fundamental Rights
Factor 5: Order and Security
Factor 6: Regulatory Enforcement
Factor 7: Civil Justice
Factor 8: Criminal Justice

PDF available at worldjusticeproject.org/rule-of-law-index