Illusions opinions reality

@badradger said
I consider myself an athiest but must admit lying on that operating table ( awake) having 3 stents fitted I did pray.

Glad you made it sir.

Keep up with the healthy diet.

@kellyjay said
Well said

Thanks KJ.

Unfortunately your posting history shows someone extremely averse to truth. For example, your refusal to accept that you have poor reading comprehension skills, poor writing skills, poor critical thinking skills, poor conceptual thinking skills, etc. Instead of accepting the truth about the above, you get all defensive and go on and on about being "insulted".

Take the red pill KJ.

@thinkofone said

You seem to be conflating reality with perception of reality.

How would this not also be about perception of reality rather than reality itself?

Aye, ToO, and therein lies the rub.

This is the subject on which countless philosophers (e.g. Habermas and the postmodernists) have spent their lives.

In his excellent book: "Integral Spirituality", Ken Wilber refers to the Myth of the Given. I am going to quote from p 176 of this book:

The myth of the given includes:
The belief that reality is simply given to me, or that there is a single, pregiven world that consciousness delivers to me more or less as it is, instead of a world that is constructed in various ways before it ever reaches my empirical or phenomenal awareness.

the belief that the consciousness of an individual will deliver truth . This is blind intersubjectivity, among other things. Consciousness itself cannot see the exterior view of the individual and the collective and is therefore deficient in and of itself.

a failure to understand that the truth that the subject delivers is constructed in part by intersubjective cultural networks This is why the myth of the given is also called "the philosophy of the subject". What we also need is "the philosophy of the intersubject, or intersubjectivity".

the belief that the mirror of nature, or the reflection paradigm, is an adequate methodology This is essentially the belief that the reflection paradigm, or monological empiricism and monological phenomonology, will cover transpersonal realities. But the subject does not reflect reality, it co-creates it.

Quite a mouthful, but interesting stuff indeed.

@CalJust

I think it is commendable that you "don't have an issue with someone who believes differently" than you do. That is a great start.

But then in your final sentence you refer to "truth" again, and oppose that to "illusion".

Question 1: Am I right in assuming that what you refer to as "truth" is the way you currently believe, and someone else who believes differently (say I, or fmf, or Ghost, or Galv - or even sonship from the LCM) is suffering from an illusion?

Question 2: If that is so, what do you see your responsibility being:
(a) Showing them the error of their ways and leading them to know the truth?
(b) Shunning them?
(c). Saying to them "Go in peace, brother, and live your life fully in harmony with those around you. Try not to hurt yourself or others."

Since you avoided my questions, I will try to answer for you, according to the perceptions that I have, based on your previous posts. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong:

Question1: YES
Question 2 (a)

My answers to those same questions would be:

Question 1: NO
Question 2: (c)

I think that is why it is difficult to discuss terms like truth and illusion with you. We lack a common framework.

@caljust said
Sorry to disagree with you, Wolfgang, but reality is also filtered through our senses (or instruments) and perceptions and interpreted in terms of our past experiences, so in that sense it is relative and subjective.

Is the reality of an autistic boy the same as yours and mine?

The Matrix probably had it right - this could all be a dream and I am not really typing this but having a nightmare!

We interpret reality differently sure. (Is your red the same as my
red? How can we know?) But reality remains the same. It is what is.

As soon as you use a a phrase such as "the reality of an autistic boy"
you are not talking about reality but perception of reality. Regarding
the Matrix it does highlight the point that perhaps none of us can or
ever will know for sure what reality is. (But a single reality must still exist)

@wolfgang59 said
It is what is.
(But a single reality must still exist)

Not to labour the point, Wolfgang, but when you talk about “a single reality” that “must exist” you are a victim of the myth of the given.

You and ToO want to draw a distinction between perception and the real, actual reality that exists out there. That is the myth - even the imagined, true realty can only be conceived, or perceived by your consciousness, which is very limited, and can only see the “interior view”, or the first and third quadrants in Wilber’s model.

But I admit that this concept is difficult to explain without going into detail iinto the preceding 150 or so pages.

@caljust said
Not to labour the point, Wolfgang, but when you talk about “a single reality” that “must exist” you are a victim of the myth of the given.

But I admit that this concept is difficult to explain without going into detail iinto the preceding 150 or so pages.

You think you inhabit a reality all to yourself?

@wolfgang59 said
We interpret reality differently sure. (Is your red the same as my
red? How can we know?) But reality remains the same. It is what is.

As soon as you use a a phrase such as "the reality of an autistic boy"
you are not talking about reality but perception of reality. Regarding
the Matrix it does highlight the point that perhaps none of us can or
ever will know for sure what reality is. (But a single reality must still exist)

He was right in so much that reality is filtered through our senses. Filtered though, not changed.

I sometimes take clients with social anxiety into busy coffee shops and play chess with them. (Have a splendid cloth board). I use a technique of habitualization and extinction. (Basically, if a person can learn to tolerate social anxiety by frequent exposure this will lead to overcoming the anxiety itself. - That's the hope at least). Chess is a great tool for this as it provides a distraction from the noisy environment, so the client can be in a social setting and yet 'filter out' some of the hustle and bustle through concentration and 'chess-escapism.' (A word I just invented).

Anyway, my point is that although the 'reality of the busy coffee shop' can be filtered out by distraction, this filtering out in no way changes the reality of the environment itself. The coffee shop remains busy, even when it is no longer perceived as such.

Even chess has its limitations.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
He was right in so much that reality is filtered through our senses. Filtered though, not changed.

I sometimes take clients with social anxiety into busy coffee shops and play chess with them. (Have a splendid cloth board). I use a technique of habitualization and extinction. (Basically, if a person can learn to tolerate social anxiety by frequent exposure this wil ...[text shortened]... e shop remains busy, even when it is no longer perceived as such.

Even chess has its limitations.

Seeing through a glass darkly. 🙂

@caljust said
Not to labour the point, Wolfgang, but when you talk about “a single reality” that “must exist” you are a victim of the myth of the given.

You and ToO want to draw a distinction between perception and the real, actual reality that exists out there. That is the myth - even the imagined, true realty can only be conceived, or perceived by your consciousness, which is very li ...[text shortened]... this concept is difficult to explain without going into detail iinto the preceding 150 or so pages.

No myth.
Reality exists without an observer.

@kellyjay said
Seeing through a glass darkly. 🙂

Even the Apostle Paul was on the right page with that one.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Anyway, my point is that although the 'reality of the busy coffee shop' can be filtered out by distraction, this filtering out in no way changes the reality of the environment itself. The coffee shop remains busy, even when it is no longer perceived as such.

Even chess has its limitations.

Good explanation.

@wolfgang59 said
Good explanation.

Wisdom often comes with coffee.

@caljust said
That is the myth - even the imagined, true realty can only be conceived, or perceived by your consciousness, which is very limited, and can only see the “interior view”, or the first and third quadrants in Wilber’s model.

With all due respect Wilber's Model is pseudo-science quackery.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Wisdom often comes with coffee.

Doesn't almost everything good come with coffee, or something is missing? 🙂