14 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by metbieropOk, I will adress this particular statement. I view it as being the issue that seperates us. On the one hand, you say that you live a Christian life for the most part. You say you are a "good" person. In fact, you are better than most Chrisitians you know. Well that is great!!! Go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back. However, are you still not a sinner? And if God is holy, can he embrace you as such?
[b]True they did doubt his word.
There really is a difference. This my sound strange to you but I don´t doubt the Christians teaching. I live to Gods word much more then many Christians I know. Therefore I don´t think I have excluded him from my life.
Most religions teach that as long as your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds you will make it into heaven, and that is what I hear you saying when you say that you are "better" than most Christians you know. Cconversly, Christianity teaches that God has made provisions including Christ's sacrifice on the cross to wash away our sins so that he can embrace us as holy like himself. Why this is, is somewhat of a mystery but I have my theories. Again, if you want salvation go to the source that offers it, not what you or I think. I also think his sacrifice for us prevents us from forming a pompous attitude of I am better than other people because I was good enough to make it into heaven. All glory belongs to God because everything came from him.
Lastly, Christianity is not just a philosophy. It is not just a myriad of "good" rules to follow. Christianity is a walk and a relationship with the Almighty. This is another distinguishing factor that sets Christianity apart from all other religions and is something lacking in what I hear you say. God placed in us the need to relate to one another and this includes relating to God himself. God also placed in us the desire for those relations to be grounded in love. In fact, without love we are nothing. Therefore, you may exclude God from those of your loving relationships if you wish, however, the #1 commandment in the Bible is to love the Lord with all of your heart, soul, and mind. Are you then doing so by simply adhering to a few Christian rules and rejecting the ones you do not fancy? After all, if you followed all of Christ's teachings, I would assume that you would consider yourself a Christian. Christ said that if you loved him you will desire to follow his commandments in order to please him.
To sum up, if you say you love God, should you not spend time with him like you so with the ones you love? Should you not place your faith in him like you do with the ones that you love? Is he an impersonal God to you and would you recognize his voice if you heard it?
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyI see you are indeed trying to debate. I think we are too far apart.
Ok, I will adress this particular statement. I view it as being the issue that seperates us. On the one hand, you say that you live a Christian life for the most part. You say you are a "good" person. In fact, you are better than most Chrisitians you know. Well that is great!!! Go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back. However, are you still not a ...[text shortened]... love? Is he an impersonal God to you and would you recognize his voice if you heard it?
I will just respond to a few impulses you just gave me.
Then I think we should stop debating. (Feel free to respond though and no hard feelings on my side.)
In general I think you are making way too much assumptions. I´ll explain
I never called myself a better person then most Christians, I was saying I followed Christianity more. And yes I am trying to be a good person. To respond on your sarcasm, it is not patting myself on the back. Yes I am a sinner.
About your text starting `Lastly, Christianity is,.....in order to please him´ I think you are way out of line here. I don´t think you should speak this way unless you are a discipel. Don´t forget it is your view. even many Christians could disagree on your claims.
as last about your `Are you then doing so by simply adhering to a few Christian rules and rejecting the ones you do not fancy´
Everyone is. Even you. To put it stronger even you on this forum! I think you truly don´t understand what I am saying. But I am willing to PM with you about it.
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by metbieropMatt 19 :
You could not be more wrong. I´ll explain.
1: You hope so ?
Yes
2:Why?
Is this truly so hard to imagine?
I´ll give you a hint it is the same reasoning, why I wanna live and don´t kill myself at this very moment.
3: You want salvation
If you ment, If I wanna keep living after I die. Yes
If you ment something else please explain what you m ...[text shortened]... nd to at least reply at my question. You are only shouting some stuff. Who is freeloading here?
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
14 Jul 07
3 edits
Originally posted by metbieropIt'd be helpful to define what one means by "fully embrace" here.
1) God himself is 100% love, 100% perfect and 100% fair
2) God will forgive `ANY` sin as long as you embrace him. (She means that you´ll have to say and feel that is absoluty certain that he excist and is good and pure, etc)
3) You will NEVER go to heaven if you don´t fully embrace him. No matter what you do or how you live.
Tolkien hit the nail on the head when describing the propitiative nature of Christ's sacrifice: "once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice" (Heb. 9:26), "everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).
That being said, it cannot be stressed enough: faith in Christ is not a matter of 'willing' or 'feeling' or 'thinking', as if the flesh could produce faith. On the contrary, faith is produced by the Spirit of God alone. What is required for salvation is not absolute certainty, or a 'full embrace' of God as he is revealed in scripture, but repentance.
Repentance is produced by the Holy Spirit, and is not the result of striving. It is essentially the recognition that nothing good dwells in the flesh and that nothing good or holy can be accomplished through the strength of the flesh; repentance is a radical revelation of one's utter helplessness.
So you see, it is wrong to say, as someone did to you, that we must 'fully embrace' and have 'absolute certainty' in God to be saved. We turn to God when we recognize our helplessness, when we come to the end of ouselves, and it is He Who supernaturally imparts the faith of Jesus Christ to our spirits, "Jesus . . . who initiates and perfects our faith" (Heb. 12:2).
To 'feel' absolutely certain means nothing. 'Feeling' is of the flesh, not of the spirit. In truth, a believer can be uncertain and entertain doubts even after being born-again; uncertainty and doubt will always plague the flesh this side of heaven. But nevertheless "his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children" (Rom. 8:16).
I hope I've addressed your concerns...
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by whodeyAnd to think your omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient God presided over it all.
But they did doubt God. What is the difference between doubting his word that his existence is true or not and/or doubting whether or not what he said about partaking of the fruit is true or not. Either way, you are doubting his word. This is why faith is important. There will ALWAYS be times when we don't see the big picture. We then have the option of ...[text shortened]... you need his help? For example, if you don't need him for your salvation, then save yourself.
15 Jul 07
Originally posted by metbieropEven in Dominus Iesus, one of the most dubious (for me) papal statements,it is made clear that there is a road to salvation outside the chiritian church, never heard any "one way" statement from Muslims, Jews or Buddhists(as I wrote fanatics not included).
That sounds great!
Are you certain that the 3rd point is not stated by Christianity?
I agree that 1 and 2 perfectly go together without 3.
15 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Owkay. So according to Matt19. We are both freeloading or at least not trying to be perfect.
Matt 19 :
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt n ...[text shortened]... But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
15 Jul 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasFully embrace should mean something like letting God into your hearth. But this might also be to vague. I don´t know it better they are not my personal statements.
It'd be helpful to define what one means by "fully embrace" here.
Tolkien hit the nail on the head when describing the propitiative nature of Christ's sacrifice: "once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice" (Heb. 9:26), "everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life" (Joh ...[text shortened]... s children" (Rom. 8:16).
I hope I've addressed your concerns...
Your view certainly helped me.
Thank you.
15 Jul 07
Originally posted by metbieropNo, I am not freeloading.
Owkay. So according to Matt19. We are both freeloading or at least not trying to be perfect.
I am a Christian and you said you are not.
I believe that Christ will one day return to judge us all.
He said very clearly what qualities he is looking for before anyone is given salvation. I am trying (not always suceeding), to attain that perfection and I know that Christ does not expect perfection.
A freeloader is one who claims to not believe in God but still wants to be given salvation. I am not saying an atheist is doomed. Christ gave the parable of the Good Samaritan. A Samaritan was in those days considered to be heathens and unworthy of salvation. Christ was obvioulsy sending a strong message on the importance of WORKS in determining who will get salvation. Again in Matt 25 .. the same message. Its WORKS, Its GOOD DEEDS, Its HELPING, GIVING, CARING, for those unfortunate around you.
15 Jul 07
1 edit
This is exactly the same argument that goes:
How can evil exist if:
1) God is all-powerful (omnipitent)
2) God is all loving (benevolent)
1) If evil exists but God is unable to stop it, then God is not omnipitent.
2) If God can stop it, but chooses not to, He (or She or It) is not truly benevolent.
3) Evil exists, so God must be responsible for its creation, if not see 1)
So, we can deduce that either God is not good or all-powerful or both
The argument for freedom of actions doesn't take into account such things as natural disasters, famines, plagues, church roofs falling-in etc.
15 Jul 07
Originally posted by metbierop1) God himself is 100% love, 100% perfect and 100% fair.
First of all I´d like to say that I am raised a Christian. But I am not. I don´t say that they are wrong either.
I don´t know in which way the bible is true. It can be read in many different ways so there are different thruths. Some views can be combined, but simply not all views can be true.
I also don´t know if we still live after we die. I ju ...[text shortened]... any here that agree on the statements 1-3. If you do, would you be so kind to explain your view.
Yes, so if you reject Him, you've rejected Him, if you come to God in
your righteousness not one that is required to enter His kingdom you
will get what you deserve, not because there was not a provision to
save you, only because you missed it, or rejected it.
2 God will forgive `ANY` sin as long as you embrace him.
If you are drowning, would you refuse a rescuer help that came out
and needed to embrace you so you could be saved? That is a closer
description to God saving us, as God embrace is much better than ours.
3You will NEVER go to heaven if you don´t fully embrace him. No matter what you do or how you live.
Not your kingdom, it is God’s so why should you be allowed in? It isn’t
like you wanted in during this life while you could have gone to God
for God’s grace and mercy when the door was open, and Jesus was
willing and able to clean you of your sins.
Kelly
15 Jul 07
Originally posted by SquelchbelchAssumption 2 is incorrect.
This is exactly the same argument that goes:
How can evil exist if:
1) God is all-powerful (omnipitent)
2) God is all loving (benevolent)
1) If evil exists but God is unable to stop it, then God is not omnipitent.
2) If God can stop it, but chooses not to, He (or She or It) is not truly benevolent.
3) Evil exists, so God must be responsibl ...[text shortened]... e into account such things as natural disasters, famines, plagues, church roofs falling-in etc.
Lots of people say God is 100% love.
But ask them what exactly they mean by it or to find the place in the Bible that says so and they cant.
15 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999John 4:8
Assumption 2 is incorrect.
Lots of people say God is 100% love.
But ask them what exactly they mean by it or to find the place in the Bible that says so and they cant.
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
15 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999You said
So ? You have a comprehension problem ?
Originally posted by Rajk999
Assumption 2 is incorrect.
Lots of people say God is 100% love.
But ask them what exactly they mean by it or to find the place in the Bible that says so and they cant.
I then quoted
John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Now you're making yourself look none too clever. You should have just left it alone.
I leave it for others to decide who has the cogent, logical argument & comprehension problems.
Thanks & bye
😀