In the beginning God or nothing?

Originally posted by KellyJay
You believe the universe to be eternal, define for me what you mean
by eternal because I think we are at odds on how we define that term.
Kelly

By eternal I mean lasting for an infinite amount of time, with no beginning or end. I think I asked for an alternative definition from you earlier in the thread and this was your definition:
1. If there was anything or anyone around before the universe began
that anything or anyone would ensure periods of time all around the
universe. If the universe started or had a beginning and what caused
the universe wasn't itself, there were periods before the beginning of
the universe where the cause was and the universe was not! So there
was a period of time before the universe began, the moment when the
universe began, and all the time after it began as it related to the
cause of the universe.
Kelly
To be honest, I cant really follow it - which I did point out to which you replied:
If something or someone is forever, than time is with it don't you
think? Even a rock sitting in the ground is going through time, a
person sleeping is going through time. As soon as you have anything
eternal you have its actions or processes going through time.
Kelly
Again, I don't quite get it.
Then later you said:
Eternal means forever, time is part of that, if something is there
doing anything before, during, after apply don't you think?
Kelly
By this point I was getting the impression that you thought there was a 'before time' which really doesn't make any sense.

Are you able to put it in language I can understand?

Originally posted by daniel58
So you don't Believe in Eternity?

Actually I don’t totally rule out the possibility although, as far as I am aware, the current evidence seems to be against it.

Originally posted by KellyJay
If there was "no before that" we have what, nothing? You have some
other way to state that? As long as there is something and a process
taking place we move to the beginning of that process, you have a
thing called the singularity that was supposed to be active, it was made
up of various parts with space between them, they were seated in
something else ...[text shortened]...
history too I imagine, we have theories on what that was, and what it
was made of?
Kelly

…If there was "no before that" we have what, nothing?
….

We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? -”before“ it? don’t you see the illogic of your question? The question is meaningless (like the question “why are all circles square-shaped?” is meaningless) because if there was "no before that" then there was “no nothing before that".

…As long as there is something and a process
taking place we MOVE TO the beginning of that process,
...(my emphasis)

No -not for this process. We “MOVE TO” the beginning of that process (i.e. the singularity) from what point in time? -answer, no point in time because there was no “before”. Therefore, there is no “We MOVE TO the beginning of that process” but rather the process had a time = zero but nothing before that -it is that simple!

…it was made
up of various parts with space between them, they were seated in
something else somewhere;
….

I assume you are talking about space? -why don’t you just say “space”?

…THEREFORE, it wasn't the beginning because
its parts had to have started at some point don't you think?
…..(my emphasis)

I have read this again and again and I still not sure what you are talking about -how would it logically follow from:

1, its “parts” started at the beginning of time.

And

2, there was space there

That;

3, those “parts” had no beginning

?

If this is not what you meant then please clarify.

…The thing it was sitting in since it wasn't part of the singularity
...

Again, why not just call it “space”!

…has a
history too I imagine,
...

You mean that space and time can only exist together (which is correct)?
If so, what has this got to do with anything? -there was no space “before” time because one cannot exist without the other so there was no “history” of space “before” the singularity (if that is what you are implying here? ).

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…If there was "no before that" we have what, nothing?
….

We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? -”before“ it? don’t you see the illogic of your question? The question is meaningless (like the question “why are all circles square-shaped?” is meaningless) because if there was "no before that" then there was “no no o “history” of space “before” the singularity (if that is what you are implying here? ).[/b]

"We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? -”before“ it? don’t you see the illogic of your question? The question is meaningless (like the question “why are all circles square-shaped?” is meaningless) because if there was "no before that" then there was “no nothing before that"."

You are describing nothing, I know you reject the word, yet you are
the absence of anything is what? You have not talked about how this
came to be, the only thing you have talked about is the shape of
things being a little different nothing more, its beginning you have yet
to discuss and the reasons for that you have made quite clear,
because you have nothing.
Kelly

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…If there was "no before that" we have what, nothing?
….

We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? -”before“ it? don’t you see the illogic of your question? The question is meaningless (like the question “why are all circles square-shaped?” is meaningless) because if there was "no before that" then there was “no no ...[text shortened]... o “history” of space “before” the singularity (if that is what you are implying here? ).[/b]

"I assume you are talking about space? -why don’t you just say “space”?"

Sure we can call it space, what was it made of, was there anything
else there outside of the singularity?
Kelly

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…If there was "no before that" we have what, nothing?
….

We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? -”before“ it? don’t you see the illogic of your question? The question is meaningless (like the question “why are all circles square-shaped?” is meaningless) because if there was "no before that" then there was “no no ...[text shortened]... o “history” of space “before” the singularity (if that is what you are implying here? ).[/b]

"No -not for this process. We “MOVE TO” the beginning of that process (i.e. the singularity) from what point in time? -answer, no point in time because there was no “before”. Therefore, there is no “We MOVE TO the beginning of that process” but rather the process had a time = zero but nothing before that -it is that simple! "

Why is that, where did it come from since that was the question from
the very beginning? It seems your only real answer is you do not like
the question so you call a bad one.
Kelly

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…If there was "no before that" we have what, nothing?
….

We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? -”before“ it? don’t you see the illogic of your question? The question is meaningless (like the question “why are all circles square-shaped?” is meaningless) because if there was "no before that" then there was “no no ...[text shortened]... o “history” of space “before” the singularity (if that is what you are implying here? ).[/b]

You have split the universe into parts many parts when you said the
singularity was made of parts that had space between them so it
had volumn, you have said that is was sitting in something that too
had a history which means it had time as well, so again you have not
even attempted to really address the question of where did it all really
begin, you have only stated where you'd like to start marking time.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? -”before“ it? don’t you see the illogic of your question? The question is meaningless (like the question “why are all circles square-shaped?” is meaningless) because if there was "no before that" then there was “no nothing before that"."

You are describing nothing, I know you reject the w ...[text shortened]... scuss and the reasons for that you have made quite clear,
because you have nothing.
Kelly

…You are describing nothing
….

Nope -now you are going off-topic.
Merely using a word (like I did) is not the same as defining its meaning.

…I know you reject the word,
...

I don’t reject that word else why would I use it?

…yet you are,
the ABSENCE of anything is what?
….(my emphasis)

“Nothing” can mean “ABSENCE of anything” -so what?

I asked you:

“…We have “nothing” when? At what point in time was this “nothing”? …”

So substituting the word “nothing“ with “ABSENCE of anything” yields the questions (the same questions that you haven’t answered):

“…We have “ABSENCE of anything” when? At what point in time was this “ABSENCE of anything”? …”

…You have not talked about how this
came to be,
…..

“came to be” from what point of time? -a point of time “before” the beginning of time?
Logically, a beginning of time cannot “came to be” -IF there is a “beginning of time” then it is just is i.e. a brute fact.

…the only thing you have talked about is the shape of
things being a little different nothing more,
...

I didn’t mention “shape” -the shape of what “things” being a little different?

…its beginning you have yet
to discuss
...

Isn’t describing the singularity not discussing the conditions at the beginning?
-oh, hang on, you mean you want me to “discuss” what came “before” even though there cannot logically be a “before” the beginning of time.

…and the reasons for that you have made quite clear,
because you have nothing.

...

“nothing” when?

Originally posted by KellyJay
"I assume you are talking about space? -why don’t you just say “space”?"

Sure we can call it space, what was it made of, was there anything
else there outside of the singularity?
Kelly

…Sure we can call it space, what was it made of
…..

It isn’t “made of” anything, at least not in the tangible sense. It is dimensions -not a lot more I can say about that!

…was there anything
else there outside of the singularity?
...

In what part of space baring in mind that all of space is contained within the singularity so that there is no outside.

Note; I don’t rule out the possibility that other universes exist although IF other universe exist then it would be meaningless to say they are “inside” or “outside” our own universe because that would imply that there can be “space” as we know it "between" the universes!

Originally posted by KellyJay
"No -not for this process. We “MOVE TO” the beginning of that process (i.e. the singularity) from what point in time? -answer, no point in time because there was no “before”. Therefore, there is no “We MOVE TO the beginning of that process” but rather the process had a time = zero but nothing before that -it is that simple! "

Why is that, where did it co ...[text shortened]... It seems your only real answer is you do not like
the question so you call a bad one.
Kelly

…Why is that, WHERE did it COME FROM since that was the question from
the very beginning?
…..(my emphasis)

“WHERE” implies space so you are asking me here what space it “COME FROM” it didn’t “COME FROM” any space -it simply didn’t “COME FROM”.

Originally posted by KellyJay
You have split the universe into parts many parts when you said the
singularity was made of parts that had space between them so it
had volumn, you have said that is was sitting in something that too
had a history which means it had time as well, so again you have not
even attempted to really address the question of where did it all really
begin, you have only stated where you'd like to start marking time.
Kelly

…you have said that is was sitting in something that too
had a history
…..

You mean a history “before” time? 😛
how can there be a history “before” time?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…you have said that is was sitting in something that too
had a history
…..

You mean a history “before” time? 😛
how can there be a history “before” time?[/b]

God's history.

Originally posted by daniel58
God's history.

It can't be 'before time' can it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
It can't be 'before time' can it?

Sure it can.

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
[b]…Sure we can call it space, what was it made of
…..

It isn’t “made of” anything, at least not in the tangible sense. It is dimensions -not a lot more I can say about that!

…was there anything
else there outside of the singularity?
...

In what part of space baring in mind that all of space is contained within the singularit ...[text shortened]... erse because that would imply that there can be “space” as we know it "between" the universes![/b]

Way before when
outside of all space
and beyond all beyond,
was the nothing that wasn’t
and wouldn’t be,
before all beyond
and way outside when—

😉

__________________________________________________


There ought to be something akin to Russell’s Paradox here somewhere: Does the set of everything include itself?