Inconvenience & Evidence

Originally posted by lausey
The only reason you believe it is because it is popular, and you have been convinced by many other people who were deluded into thinking it is true, because it is popular.

There are other popular religions, and much more not so popular ones. Each person of each of these faiths will consider it a "bad choice" that I do not follow them. Why is your beliefs so special?

"Why is your beliefs so special?"

Christianity isn't as popular as it seems to appear. The real truth is the reason why.

Most of the worlds Christian community has deviated from the truth of God's word, and has opted for "religion" and call it "Christianity".

What is "real" Christianity? I'll ask you this question. If you should die today, and appeared at the gates of heaven(metaphorically speaking)and God were to ask you why He should allow you in, what would be your reply?

Originally posted by Agerg
But then as I alluded to in the OP, such a god should not be upset that I don't and cannot believe in it.
Certainly some variants of this god entity who supposedly would send a man to hell for their disbelief are untenable imply such a god is cruel & malevolent.

The question in your OP is not about the nature of god ("cruel & malevolent" ), but about the existence of said entity. Too often atheists dismiss the possibilities and concept of the supernatural simply because there is currently no empirical evidence; it's a good job the pioneers of medicine and the cosmos didn't walk the same narrow-minded paradigm of thought.

Originally posted by divegeester
The question in your OP is not about the nature of god ("cruel & malevolent" ), but about the existence of said entity. Too often atheists dismiss the possibilities and concept of the supernatural simply because there is currently no empirical evidence; it's a good job the pioneers of medicine and the cosmos didn't walk the same narrow-minded paradigm of thought.

My reason for including what I bolded here in the OP:

Until I see some firm evidence that magic is possible there is no way I could possibly accept the notion that an omnipotent omniscient creator of universes that sometimes performed miracles in the past existed and is displeased with non-believers. Sorry but that's just the way my brain is wired.

is because I anticipated the response you gave me previously.

The main difference between the medical scenario and the supernatural scenario is simple. With the former you can, inspite of a lack of empirical data, perform tests, with the latter you cannot. (Unless I am mistaken? How does one test for the supernatural short of asking for a miracle?)

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Why is your beliefs so special?"

Christianity isn't as popular as it seems to appear. The real truth is the reason why.

Most of the worlds Christian community has deviated from the truth of God's word, and has opted for "religion" and call it "Christianity".

What is "real" Christianity? I'll ask you this question. If you should die today, an ...[text shortened]... peaking)and God were to ask you why He should allow you in, what would be your reply?[/b]

Asking me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't believe there is any kind of heaven. When you die, it is over, that is the end. There is no reason why I would even contemplate what I would need to ask.

I was brought up (although no longer believe it), that when you die I will reincarnate and come back to a life which depends on what I did in the previous life. Even in that scenario, why would I even think I would need to reply to your above question?

There are people in parts of the world where Christianity is completely alien to them. They have no concept of a heaven and hell as described in the Christian bible. Try asking them that question. It would be completely ridiculous to them.

Originally posted by Agerg
My reason for including what I bolded here in the OP:

[i]Until I see some firm evidence that magic is possible there is no way I could possibly accept the notion that an omnipotent omniscient creator of universes that sometimes performed miracles in the past existed [b]and is displeased with non-believers. Sorry but that's just the way my brain is wired ...[text shortened]... . (Unless I am mistaken? How does one test for the supernatural short of asking for a miracle?)[/b]

[/i]I was pointing out that whether or not a supernatural entity is cruel is nothing to do with the possibility of that entities existence;arguing that certain factions who believe in a cruel god are condoning cruelty is not a valid argument to not believe in that entities existence.

Originally posted by lausey
Asking me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I don't believe there is any kind of heaven. When you die, it is over, that is the end. There is no reason why I would even contemplate what I would need to ask.

I was brought up (although no longer believe it), that when you die I will reincarnate and come back to a life which depends on what I did in the ...[text shortened]... the Christian bible. Try asking them that question. It would be completely ridiculous to them.

"Asking me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever."

Of course not. You lost track of the thought.


You had originally asked me why my belief is so special. I'm trying to explain that to you. But your reply indicates to me that you really don't know a thing about Christianity.

So, if you can bring yourself to discuss this in an objective way, you may learn something.

You asked a question. I'm trying to give you an answer. Do you want to continue?

Originally posted by divegeester
[/i]I was pointing out that whether or not a supernatural entity is cruel is nothing to do with the possibility of that entities existence;arguing that certain factions who believe in a cruel god are condoning cruelty is not a valid argument to not believe in that entities existence.

True, indeed I don't hold gods shouldn't be cruel (nor do I accept as necessary any other qualities like omnipotence, omniscience etc...), that said however, the majority of theists who level the challenge to me as stated in the OP do believe in a 'nice' god who is deeply offended that certain humans fail to believe in it's existence. So my argument so long as I limit it's scope to affect this particular subset of all theists is valid. (and I claim that the majority of theists who would use said challenge do believe in nice god!)

Originally posted by Agerg
True, indeed I don't hold gods shouldn't be cruel (nor do I accept as necessary any other qualities like omnipotence, omniscience etc...), that said however, the majority of theists who level the challenge to me as stated in the OP do belief in a 'nice' god who is deeply offended that certain humans fail to believe in it's existence. So my argument so long as ...[text shortened]... I claim that the majority of theists who would use said challenge do believe in nice god!)

I don't agree, most religions speak of a god of terror to some extent and some of those followers feel that it is their destiny to perpetuate that terror.

However the empirical evidence of many of those theists who post here would seem to support what you imply, but then that is the problem with only basing important decisions on what you can see, there is always the possibility that there may be more to it.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Asking me that doesn't make any sense whatsoever."

Of course not. You lost track of the thought.


You had originally asked me why my belief is so special. I'm trying to explain that to you. But your reply indicates to me that you really don't know a thing about Christianity.

So, if you can bring yourself to discuss this in an objective way ...[text shortened]... thing.

You asked a question. I'm trying to give you an answer. Do you want to continue?[/b]

No point in continuing, because there will be no objective way in discussing it. I do not believe anything like what you believe, and I do not consider this a bad choice.

I can't see how thinking up a question that fits well within your domain of beliefs, which requires believing in specific things like metaphorical pearly gates will cause your beliefs to be special.

You might has well just asked, "You die and arrive on the planet Zong, and you are asked why you should be let into this city called Fnarbarbar, what would you reply?"

Originally posted by divegeester
I don't agree, most religions speak of a god of terror to some extent and some of those followers feel that it is their destiny to perpetuate that terror.

However the empirical evidence of many of those theists who post here would seem to support what you imply, but then that is the problem with only basing important decisions on what you can see, there is always the possibility that there may be more to it.

Whether there is a supernatural aspect to reality (that we cannot perceive) is not something I can, by the definition of supernatural, get a handle on directly.

Given the nebulosity of 'supernatural' all I can do is try to choose my battle grounds carefully in an attempt to argue against the absurd. In this case I'm targeting a particular group of theists who overlook the terrors implied by their or other religions (through cognitive dissonance or otherwise) and conclude their all loving omnipotent, omniscient god wants me to believe *or else!!!*

I acknowledge it isn't a one size fits all argument.