Information = ?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually you never did give us a link to the exact page where such a challenge is made.
However I will take up the challenge. Every object in the universe that radiates energy of any kind is 'issuing forth information'. Unless you can show that the mind of God is behind this then the challenge is met. If you can on the other hand show that it is Gods min ...[text shortened]... would the writer of the site be seeking to prove that it is Gods mind based on the challenge?

Must I do everything around here? Page one has the address to cosmicfingerprint.com, page two has this one:

http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=135497&page=18

which is the address to an atheist forum in which their is an ongoing discussion regarding the challenge Marshall issued. It takes you to page 18.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Must I do everything around here? Page one has the address to cosmicfingerprint.com, page two has this one:

http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=135497&page=18

which is the address to an atheist forum in which their is an ongoing discussion regarding the challenge Marshall issued. It takes you to page 18.

So where is a link to a claim that no new information can be emited without a mind?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Did I need to put a question mark at the end? The first page gives everyone the link that challenges anyone to provide any example of information issuing forth from any source other than a mind.

If you want to ask a question, yes. You'd also have to restructure the sentence. For example:

The author picks a fight along the lines that information can only result from a mind?

I doubt you'd want me to answer "yes, the author does indeed pick that fight".

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Must I do everything around here? Page one has the address to cosmicfingerprint.com, page two has this one:

http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=135497&page=18

which is the address to an atheist forum in which their is an ongoing discussion regarding the challenge Marshall issued. It takes you to page 18.

I am not interested in surfing that website. I am interested in talking to you on this forum. If you can't be bothered to make a tiny effort to restate someone else's idea into the question you want us to answer here at the site where we are talking, then I can't be bothered to answer it.

Here; will this answer satisfy you?

http://www.talkorigins.org/

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I am not interested in surfing that website. I am interested in talking to you on this forum. If you can't be bothered to make a tiny effort to restate someone else's idea into the question you want us to answer here at the site where we are talking, then I can't be bothered to answer it.

Here; will this answer satisfy you?

http://www.talkorigins.org/

I've stated and restated already. Marshall asserts that all information comes from a mind, and that no one would be able to point to any example of any information which arises without the aid of a mind. His conclusion is that life--- specifically, DNA--- arises from a mind.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
He claims the argument has been soundly refuted, but this is clearly not the case.

Clearly, it is. Your annoying hyperbole aside, Marshall's argument is this:

1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by a mind.

Is that what has you so hot and bothered? Sorry, but:

1) Misleading premise.
2) Question begging.
3) Invalid.

Your boy relies heavily on Yockey, who does not reach the same Christian God-based conclusion as you and Marshall. Honestly, the simplest rebuttal to this nonsense was posted by one of the IIDB admins:

Actually, if one takes most of Marshall's examples seriously, Marshall's "syllogism" implies that DNA was made by a human designer.

...hence, my comment about Rael. Better forget about your anthropomorphized Sun worship and head over to Israel to get that embassy built. Drop us a postcard sometime.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
For those die-hard evolutionists (who inexplicably choose to hang out in a spirituality forum), here's a link you may wish to check out. The author picks a fight along the lines that information can only result from a mind.

This will be especially interesting to the computer geeks out there; however anyone with an inquiring mind will likely enjoy the j ...[text shortened]... I am expecting any of you to honestly review the material, but it's worth a shot, nonetheless.

For those 'Die-Hard' evolutionists? Like we are the ones backed into a corner intellectually and facing extinction? Creationists have been trying their level best to kill evolution theory for over 100 years with absolutely no success so it seems to me creationists are the die-hard ones. You are the ones backed into the corner intellectually speaking. Of course its not the intellect you wish to defeat in the first place, you simply want to win whatever the cost, like your own intellectuall honesty. Instead of saying, I know I am right because I have the almighty faith on my side, end of discussion, you instead, like the rest of the creationist cult, can't simply accept your own faith but feel obligated to destroy evolution theory by the mighty intellects the creationist think they employ. So you start a century long pissing contest with no end in sight becuase every newest proof of evolution brings only contempt and weasel-minded so-called intellectuals who
want battle not affirmation of faith. If you have your own faith, then live with it, and say to yourself "We will have the last laugh when all is said and done" and go on with your life. Instead you seem to LIKE pissing contests for nothing more than to engage in battle. Kind of says your faith is a bit shaky and needs to cut down the other side rather than just living your faith silently.

Originally posted by David C
Clearly, it is. Your annoying hyperbole aside, Marshall's argument is this:

[quote]1) DNA is not merely a molecule with a pattern; it is a code, a language, and an information storage mechanism.
2) All codes are created by a conscious mind; there is no natural process known to science that creates coded information.
3) Therefore DNA was designed by Sun worship and head over to Israel to get that embassy built. Drop us a postcard sometime.

Your annoying hyperbole aside...
I could have a million field days with that comment.

1) Misleading premise.
You really should have read a little further, as your objections have already been addressed, beginning with this one. It was only about an inch below the part that you cut and pasted here.

But hey: if your world view can't stand up to a little scrutiny, who am I to remind you?

Originally posted by sonhouse
For those 'Die-Hard' evolutionists? Like we are the ones backed into a corner intellectually and facing extinction? Creationists have been trying their level best to kill evolution theory for over 100 years with absolutely no success so it seems to me creationists are the die-hard ones. You are the ones backed into the corner intellectually speaking. Of co ...[text shortened]... bit shaky and needs to cut down the other side rather than just living your faith silently.

Kind of says your faith is a bit shaky and needs to cut down the other side rather than just living your faith silently.
Remind me again why so-called atheists are in a spirituality forum? Remind me again why the disagreement between creation and evolution is called a debate?
Remind me again why origins are so important to evolutionists?
Remind me again why evolutionists are allowed to speculate on the most outlandish, unsupportable, unverifiable ideas and yet call them science, when they belong firmly in the land of faith?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I've stated and restated already. Marshall asserts that all information comes from a mind, and that no one would be able to point to any example of any information which arises without the aid of a mind. His conclusion is that life--- specifically, DNA--- arises from a mind.

There's still no question there.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH

I could have a million field days with that comment.

In other words, one less field day than unsubstantiated claims of the supernatural. Gotcha.

who am I to remind you?

A neurotic seminary school dropout with delusions of grandeur? I dunno.

Originally posted by David C
I could have a million field days with that comment.

In other words, one less field day than unsubstantiated claims of the supernatural. Gotcha.

who am I to remind you?

A neurotic seminary school dropout with delusions of grandeur? I dunno.[/b]

In other words, one less field day than unsubstantiated claims of the supernatural. Gotcha.
Apparently your smugness blocked irony at the gate.

A neurotic seminary school dropout with delusions of grandeur? I dunno.
Must be mentally disturbed if I thought grandeur would grace someone with a moniker which contained "Freaky."

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
[b]Kind of says your faith is a bit shaky and needs to cut down the other side rather than just living your faith silently.
Remind me again why so-called atheists are in a spirituality forum? Remind me again why the disagreement between creation and evolution is called a debate?
Remind me again why origins are so important to evolutionists?
Remin ...[text shortened]... ble, unverifiable ideas and yet call them science, when they belong firmly in the land of faith?[/b]

I can't answer to your first " remind me, but the second one is only a debate in the minds of fundamentalist christians that won't let go of an obsolete idea, and the rest of your remind me's, being formed out of your own insufficiencies, aren't worth answering.

Originally posted by frogstomp
I can't answer to your first " remind me, but the second one is only a debate in the minds of fundamentalist christians that won't let go of an obsolete idea, and the rest of your remind me's, being formed out of your own insufficiencies, aren't worth answering.

Well, thanks for taking the time to spill your pebbles into my ear, nonetheless. Time well spent on both ends, I'm sure.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Well, thanks for taking the time to spill your pebbles into my ear, nonetheless. Time well spent on both ends, I'm sure.

If you could give a definition of "information" that is relevant to evolution.......