02 Jun 16
Originally posted by googlefudgeIf I asked any atheist "do you affirm or deny the proposition 'God exists'?", what would they say?
Why do you ask questions to which you already know the answer?
Here is my complete and exhaustive debate ending answer [yet again] on this topic.
This subject is not up for debate, this is the answer, deal with it.
Theist and atheist are answers to questions about a persons belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Gnostic and agnostic a ...[text shortened]... s atheists what we do or do not believe and playing word games with the definitions.[/i]
02 Jun 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkOriginally posted by Grampy Bobby (Page 1) <---
If I asked any atheist "do you affirm or deny the proposition 'God exists'?", what would they say?
"If they said anything they'd be affirming "the proposition" that "God exists”.
Therefore, "any atheist" would "say "......................................"
02 Jun 16
Originally posted by Grampy Bobbyhttps://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/sans-dieu-rien.143604
Originally posted by googlefudge
"Wrong about what???"
That God is...............................
___________
"atheism: Pronunciation: /ˈāTHēˌizəm/
"atheist: noun, Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Origin: Late 16th century: from French athéisme, from Greek atheos, from a- 'without' + theos 'god'."
http://w ...[text shortened]... person who believes in the non-existence of a god or gods." ~googlefudge
Sans Dieu Rien.....
Circular?
02 Jun 16
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Is Atheism a Belief or a Lack of Belief?" (By Trent Horn)
"When asked to prove atheism is true, many atheists say that they don’t have to prove anything. They say atheism is not “belief there is no God” but merely “no belief in a God.” Atheism is defined in this context as a “lack of belief” in God, and if Catholics can’t prove God exists, th ...[text shortened]...
Question: From your experience and research, "Is Atheism a Belief or a Lack of Belief?"[/b]
can we say agnosticism is true? We can’t, because agnostics make no claims about the world; they just describe how they feel about a fact in the world (the existence of God). Likewise, if atheists want us to believe that atheism is true, then they must make a claim about the world and show that what they lack a belief in—God—does not exist.
The assertion made is false. Agnostics and atheists can proceed indefinitely without ever needing to consider or express a view about the existence or non existence of any of the plethora of God models on offer.
It is sufficient to follow Laplace and when asked 'Does God exist?' reply - 'I do not need that hypothesis.' As has been observed, whatever Laplace actually did say to Napoleon, this was almost certainly not even a direct assertion that God does not exist or there is no God, but rather a straightforward statement that it is possible to describe the world without appealing to divine intervention at any point. God is not asserted or denied but irrelevant. As such he argued against Newton's suggestion that God must periodically intervene to ensure the regular motion of the plants. Newton did need God to explain away some anomolies, which Laplace had instead solved mathematically.
Laplace was a scientist and mathematician. The same principle can be applied, for example, to question of ethics and morality, where it is accepted by many leading theologians that we do not need - and do not even benefit from - God to devise and justify our ethical and moral systems. Again, the God hypothesis is either not relevant at all or else a positive nuisance, getting in the way of solutions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Simon_Laplace#I_had_no_need_of_that_hypothesis
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4046.Godless_Morality
https://aeon.co/essays/rules-and-reasons-are-not-enough-for-an-ethics-without-god
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02 Jun 16
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyYou really and truly need a course in basic logic and reasoning.
If they said anything they'd be affirming "the proposition" that "God exists”.
Therefore, "any atheist" would "say "......................................"
There are an infinite number of answers to that question that do not "affirm the proposition" that god exists.
Including claiming that god does exist.
Simply saying it does not make it true.
And as all atheists are different and the only thing we hold in common is a lack of belief in the existence of
gods "any atheist" might say all kinds of things.
So asking for 'THE atheist answer" to any question other than "do you lack belief in gods?" [y/n] is to fatally
[and in your case deliberately] misunderstand what an atheist is.
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02 Jun 16
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipIt's not a dodge.
The Dilahunty Dodge
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjG9G3xLi98
If I ask you "have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no." you are going to respond
by saying that you never beat your wife [if you even have one] and that I presented a false
dichotomy... those were not the only two options.
The question put was:
"If I asked any atheist do you affirm or deny the proposition “God exists”? What would they say?"
If you affirm, then you are a theist and not an atheist as you are stating that you believe that a god
exists.
If you deny the proposition then you are a strong [and or gnostic] atheist as you are stating that you
believe that a god does not exist. [at least with respect to the Christian god as the questioner still hasn't
grasped that atheists lack belief in all gods and are not just defined by lack of belief in the singular
capitalised Christian god]
However as I/We have made crystal clear time and time and time and time and time again, THOSE ARE
NOT THE ONLY TWO OPTIONS.
Most atheists simply lack belief in the existence of gods, and for those atheists NEITHER answer is
appropriate.
The fact that you are logically illiterate and cannot comprehend this is not a fault or flaw in my/our argument
or position. It's a fault with you.
EDIT: Also matt slick is a pathetic and evil liar who couldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag.
Really not the guy you want to turn to for support.
02 Jun 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI've argued my position on this topic more times than I care to count as well.
If I asked any atheist "do you affirm or deny the proposition 'God exists'?", what would they say?
From my perspective we are talking about 1 God, 2 gods, and 3 no gods.
This means our views of everything is colored by the acceptance or rejection of any of the
3 above. To accept, reject, or deny any of those stances no matter how you word it the
universe will either:
1. Have God who has done, doing, and will do what God will in the universe.
2. Have gods who have done, doing, and will do what they want in the universe.
3. No God or gods have done, doing, are about to do anything in the universe.
I'm sure there will be those that split hairs on the way I have describe them, but that will
always be the case here in my opinion. With some I think we can agree on everything, but
they will look till they find something we disagree on.
My point about these 3 views is the universe is looked at differently no matter if you claim
to have a positive, negative, or no view about God. That means there is filter we apply
to all things when we grapple with that topic and the universe we find ourselves in.
I don't care if someone claims they have no view about God, I think that is a self-defeating
or contradicting statement since they are talking about God as if He were real or not.
If they wish to go on describing themselves that way it is up to them not me.
The only way this discussion has any meaning is if the answer to God being real carries
with it a consequence.
02 Jun 16
Originally posted by googlefudgeIf you ask if I have stopped beating my wife my response would be I have never started.
It's not a dodge.
If I ask you "have you stopped beating your wife yet? yes or no." you are going to respond
by saying that you never beat your wife [if you even have one] and that I presented a false
dichotomy... those were not the only two options.
The question put was:
[i]"If I asked any atheist do you affirm or deny the proposition “God ex ...[text shortened]... ldn't argue his way out of a wet paper bag.
Really not the guy you want to turn to for support.
To be confronted with something if it is factual or not takes away the ability to say you
have no views or opinion on the topic.
The rejection due to not accepting God is real, or having no belief is different I agree. The
trouble you have is that once confronted with the God question you make a choice by
answering it. You can go about your day never having to state if a Zekrodle is real, but if it
is described to you and then you are asked you have an opinion one way or another you
have now made a choice and have formed a belief/opinion.