31 May 11
Originally posted by Rajk999Now I am confused. Where do you want references from? Are we talking about from the Bible, Scientific literature, general philosophy? A dictionary?
Ok. So lets back up what we say with some references.
1. I cannot find any references which supports this .. "..to act because you fear judgement is inherently selfish .." Let me know if you find any, or failing that, what is the logic behind it.
Isn't is the very definition of selfish, that if you act solely for self preservation you are acting selfishly?
Lets try this reference:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/selfish
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc.,
2. There is no option to give up your salvation for someone else so Im certain that Christ never addressed that issue. The only option is to give up your life for another, and that is what Christ called the ' greatest love .. "
Yes, that is the usual avoidance technique I get from Christians when I give that example, ie "its all hypothetical so lets not discuss it".
31 May 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt is clearly a biblical discussion so if you want to respond properly use references from the Bible.
Now I am confused. Where do you want references from? Are we talking about from the Bible, Scientific literature, general philosophy? A dictionary?
Isn't is the very definition of selfish, that if you act solely for self preservation you are acting selfishly?
Lets try this reference:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/selfish
1. devoted to or ca ...[text shortened]... rom Christians when I give that example, ie "its all hypothetical so lets not discuss it".
Acting to preserve your own personal life or assets can be selfish if others are disadvantaged.
Acting to keep your salvation by doing good works is not selfish. Its what Christ commanded us to do.
31 May 11
Originally posted by Rajk999If that were the case I'd say you had a point, what you did was to specifically
I have simply repeated what Christ said.
If it falls in your garden then maybe you should look closely at your beliefs.
name me and accused Christians of not following Christ, you and the devil have
a lot in common.
Kelly
31 May 11
Originally posted by Rajk999What nonsense. If I say something is selfish, then I mean it is selfish. I do not need biblical references to back that up.
It is clearly a biblical discussion so if you want to respond properly use references from the Bible.
Acting to keep your salvation by doing good works is not selfish. Its what Christ commanded us to do.
It depends on the motivation. If you are doing it on Christs behalf, then I agree it is not wholly selfish. It is being selfish, but not as an end unto itself.
If you are doing it to save your own hide, then it is, by definition, wholly selfish.
If you disagree with my definition of selfish, please back up your claims with Biblical references. (No, I don't want to know what Christ commanded you to do, I want Biblical verses stating or suggesting that it is not selfish to save your self.)
31 May 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadChrist said to do good works. The only wrong motivation was to be seen of men.
What nonsense. If I say something is selfish, then I mean it is selfish. I do not need biblical references to back that up.
[b]Acting to keep your salvation by doing good works is not selfish. Its what Christ commanded us to do.
It depends on the motivation. If you are doing it on Christs behalf, then I agree it is not wholly selfish. It is being ...[text shortened]... to do, I want Biblical verses stating or suggesting that it is not selfish to save your self.)[/b]
End of Story.
You were clearly brought up by modern christianity's corrupt teachings.
31 May 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999Not just yet it isn't. You have just changed your claim. A moment ago you said the motivation was self preservation (on behalf of Christ). Now you are giving a more direct motivation.
Christ said to do good works. The only wrong motivation was to be seen of men.
End of Story.
Looks like you are trying to avoid admitting your error.
You were clearly brought up by modern christianity's corrupt teachings.
Ha ha. The things people say when backed into a corner are hilarious.
Where are the Biblical references I asked for?
Now, I also need Biblical references for your claim that I was brought up by modern christianity's corrupt teachings.
31 May 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou are not understanding.
Not just yet it isn't. You have just changed your claim. A moment ago you said the motivation was self preservation (on behalf of Christ). Now you are giving a more direct motivation.
Looks like you are trying to avoid admitting your error.
[b]You were clearly brought up by modern christianity's corrupt teachings.
Ha ha. The things people say whe ...[text shortened]... l references for your claim that I was brought up by modern christianity's corrupt teachings.[/b]
I said that Christ said to do good works but not for the purpose of being seen by men.
Christ said to to fear God and judgment for God has the power to end our existence.
I never tried to determine (as you are doing) any motiviation for good works becuase Christ never discussed that either.
31 May 11
Originally posted by Rajk999Actually, you accepted that the motivation of getting into heaven was acceptable, then later tried to back out of it when it started to look bad.
I never tried to determine (as you are doing) any motiviation for good works becuase Christ never discussed that either.
I see however that you are lost when Jesus didn't tell you something. Now I see why you are so desperate for Biblical references, and so reluctant to give them.
I am still waiting for those Biblical references I asked for.
31 May 11
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou are insane. I never backed out of anything.
Actually, you accepted that the motivation of getting into heaven was acceptable, then later tried to back out of it when it started to look bad.
I see however that you are lost when Jesus didn't tell you something. Now I see why you are so desperate for Biblical references, and so reluctant to give them.
I am still waiting for those Biblical references I asked for.
Christ listed only one reason why'good' works is not necessarily good and that is when we do it for men to see.
Claiming that works is not good because someone does it to get salvation is a wholly unbiblical statement.
And biblical references are essential if we are to follow what Christ said otherwise its just your opinion.
Its your opinion that someone who does good works to get salvation is selfish. Christ said no such thing and he is the judge.
Working towards salvation is saving your hide and thats exactly what the Bible says to do.
31 May 11
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm not the one throwing my toys out of the cot and seeing red.
You are insane.
I never backed out of anything.
Then what was the "end of story", line all about? Sounded like a 'shut up or you'll show me up' line to me.
Claiming that works is not good because someone does it to get salvation is a wholly unbiblical statement.
And I didn't make any such claim. Its you that panicked when I said it was selfish.
And biblical references are essential if we are to follow what Christ said otherwise its just your opinion.
So why aren't you giving me any references? I have asked three times for you to back up what is so far 'just your opinion' and nothing is forth coming from you.
Its your opinion that someone who does good works to get salvation is selfish.
Its not opinion, its simple logic. It follows directly from the definition.
Christ said no such thing and he is the judge.
But since he hasn't made a judgement on the matter, either yea or nay, you cannot possibly know that it is not true can you? Or do you have a Biblical reference where Christ says it is not selfish?
Working towards salvation is saving your hide and thats exactly what the Bible says to do.
And it is selfish.
31 May 11
Originally posted by KellyJayHow do you reconcile that with the following?:
Can be yes.
Kelly
Matthew 19:16-24
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “...if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” ...The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
01 Jun 11
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHere is another interesting passage :
How do you reconcile that with the following?:]
Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luk 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Luk 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
01 Jun 11
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhat problem do you see with that? He was telling that one guy what his
How do you reconcile that with the following?:
Matthew 19:16-24
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “...if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” ...The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” Jesus sai ...[text shortened]... to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
issue was, and it was his wealth, he loved it more than God. Being content
in God is a great thing, no matter if your rich or poor it is meaningless with
respect to your relationship with God. God tells us to love Him and each
other, you can do that with or without money, money can get in way, but it
does not by itself mean anything with respect to someone's heart.
Kelly