06 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75No i already did reply about them, I said one was enough, because if I could prove my point about one then that was all that I needed to do because The Bible can't contradict Itself.
And you still haven't answered about those scriptures? Do you just ignor them?
06 Sep 09
Originally posted by daniel58So Jesus lied then about how to pray? Did he not say to only pray thru him? Did he ever once say to pray any other way or thru anyone else? Your really jumping around this aren't you?
No i already did reply about them, I said one was enough, because if I could prove my point about one then that was all that I needed to do because The Bible can't contradict Itself.
06 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75You're right He said He was The Only One, you're supposed to pray THROUGH, not you can't pray in any other way.
So Jesus lied then about how to pray? Did he not say to only pray thru him? Did he ever once say to pray any other way or thru anyone else? Your really jumping around this aren't you?
06 Sep 09
Originally posted by daniel58But it's ok to pray to another deity as you say Mary is who does not exist? Isiah 42:8. Do you pray before a statue of the "Virgin Mary" ?
You're right He said He was The Only One, you're supposed to pray THROUGH, not you can't pray in any other way.
Exodus 20:4,5. Lev 26:1. 2Cor 6:16. 1John 5:21. Acts 17:29. Isiah 42:8.
Open your eyes Daniel. Your a good and smart kid....
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06 Sep 09
Originally posted by galveston75Galveston, have you ever been to an average Catholic ceremony? Do you have any direct knowledge of Catholicism at all? The average Catholic church is not unlike a Protestant church. The Mass is also unlikely to be very different from what many other Christians practice. Catholics do not congregate around statues of Mary and declare it God. If you attended a Mass, you would see this for yourself.
But it's ok to pray to another deity as you say Mary is who does not exist? Isiah 42:8. Do you pray before a statue of the "Virgin Mary" ?
Exodus 20:4,5. Lev 26:1. 2Cor 6:16. 1John 5:21. Acts 17:29. Isiah 42:8.
Open your eyes Daniel. Your a good and smart kid....
Anyway, there is nothing idolatrous in the Catholic use of statues. Catholics do not believe that the statues are gods, unlike the early pagans and the Israelites who were tempted to worship golden statues of Baal. Catholics only use these statues as a way of focusing their prayer. So they might kneel in front of a statues of Mary so that they can concentrate more on their prayer to her. In all my years as a Catholic however I have never seen anyone do this. Most Catholics probably just see the statues as decoration.
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06 Sep 09
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75Don't be such a bigot. You asked Daniel to explain the conflict between the Scriptures and the act of praying to Mary. As Daniel pointed out, the Scripture you quoted do not actually show any conflict at all. No doubt Daniel would also agree with St. Paul on the need to pray to Christ.
You didn't quote anything that shows you can pray to God thru anyone but Jesus. No one including Mary has anything to do with your prayers to God except Jesus. It's so sad that your religion has done this to you...
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06 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by divegeesterThis is a great misrepresentation of papal authority. The Pope does not reveal truth. He is not a prophet. He is not like the apostles or the prophets of the OT. All the Pope does is declare the truth. So if there is a dogmatic dispute, such as whether Mary was assumed into heaven, the Pope, after consultation with the bishops, can declare the answer. This is not a revelation, however. He is not revealing a dogma but settling a dispute over dogma.
So you are saying new truth can be revealed by other people from within the Catholic organisation, other than the Pope...Who?
There are other ways that a dogma can be settled. The worldwide bishops have the power to declare a dogma. This normally happens at a Church council (the last one to do so was in the 19th century, declaring papal infallibility.)
06 Sep 09
3 edits
Originally posted by Conrau Kwhat about the catholic processions, where an idol or an object of veneration is paraded through the streets in a kind of triumphal procession?
Galveston, have you ever been to an average Catholic ceremony? Do you have any direct knowledge of Catholicism at all? The average Catholic church is not unlike a Protestant church. The Mass is also unlikely to be very different from what many other Christians practice. Catholics do not congregate around statues of Mary and declare it God. If you attended a ...[text shortened]... er I have never seen anyone do this. Most Catholics probably just see the statues as decoration.
plus the claim that the worship of an idol is relative, in that it merely helps the devotee, i do not also think is wholly accurate, for in cultures where is means something quite significant as in Africa, South America, as in India, are we to assume that these Catholics also hold that is is simply a matter of relativity in that worship is not directed towards the idol, but God. what would these temples, processions, churches be without their sacred relics and idols?
please note Conrad, i am only inquiring. for it appears to me, that the most appealing aspect of Catholicism, is not its quest for truth nor in its defence of scripture, but in its aestheticism and appeal to the senses.
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06 Sep 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, a procession through the streets might centre around a cross or the Eucharist. I don't see how that could be construed as idolatry. Most Christians will recognise the symbolic importance of the cross as the sybol of Christ's death, mankind's redemption, and the cost of discipleship. Hardly idolatrous. Eucharistic processions are also not idolatrous. Catholics really do believe that Christ is right there in the Eucharist. They do not believe they are not worshipping another god, but Christ himself.
what about the catholic processions, where an idol or an object of veneration is paraded through the streets in a kind of triumphal procession?
plus the claim that the worship of an idol is relative, in that it merely helps the devotee, i do not also think is wholly accurate, for in cultures where is means something quite significant as in Afric ...[text shortened]... est for truth nor in its defence of scripture, but in its aestheticism and appeal to the senses.
Possibly there is an argument that some in countries, where there is already a cultural inclination to polytheism and paganism, the use of statues might be counter-productive. Perhaps they misconstrue the statues as objects of worship. It is obviously a concern then that the Church give proper catechesis to ensure that these people are properly informed.
As for relics, I agree that there is something idolatrous. Some Catholics really will believe that the relics have some magical power -- that relics can heal the sick or solve all their problems. I suppose that it is just the natural inclination of the human mind to deify objects. Officially however, relics are supposed to be a means of honoring saints, just as people will keep photographs of loved ones or memorabilia.
06 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau Kwow, thanks for your objectivity,
Well, a procession through the streets might centre around a cross or the Eucharist. I don't see how that could be construed as idolatry. Most Christians will recognise the symbolic importance of the cross as the sybol of Christ's death, mankind's redemption, and the cost of discipleship. Hardly idolatrous. Eucharistic processions are also not idolatrous. C ...[text shortened]... means of honoring saints, just as people will keep photographs of loved ones or memorabilia.
my friend from southern Germany, Bavaria, says that there is a procession held every year called 'corpus christi', and i wondered if this is universal.
06 Sep 09
I believe that Catholicism varies and also spans the gambit from being Christian to whacky. There is a cult of Mary so to speak. I was telling a co-worker who is Mexican How I believe Mary was no longer a virgin. I also told her to worship or pray to Mary is not really biblically correct. She said their are people who would kill me dead for saying that! I was like wow!
Manny
06 Sep 09
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71yes, the south Americans can have a very 'militant', approach to their religion i believe. Was it not there that 'liberation theology' was adopted and practised? interestingly Mexico city as far as i am aware, has the largest concentration of JWs of any city on earth! peace be upon it!
I believe that Catholicism varies and also spans the gambit from being Christian to whacky. There is a cult of Mary so to speak. I was telling a co-worker who is Mexican How I believe Mary was no longer a virgin. I also told her to worship or pray to Mary is not really biblically correct. She said their are people who would kill me dead for saying that! I was like wow!
Manny
06 Sep 09
2 edits
This thread is NOT about the accusing believers; it's not even entirely about Catholicism per se; I wanted to use Catholicism as an example of what I see as organised, hierarchical Babylonic religion with its associated trappings and errors. My apologies for any personal offence taken by any previous posts.
As an example: if anyone interested truly can't see that praying to a dead woman, is in any way contrary to the teachings of the Bible then I guess this thread is completely wasted as some posters here have indicated. (Atheists, please resist jumping in about Jesus being a dead man and save it for another thread).
It is true that other denominations under the banner of Christianity carry much or the error and Babylonic paraphernalia of Catholicism, but that still doesn't make any of it right. I'm just attempting to generate some discussion about these things.
Please believe me when I say I’m not judging believers; I have no right too. But we can judge the religion.
06 Sep 09
Originally posted by divegeesterhave you ever read the two Babylons by Alexander Hislop? he tries to trace the specific elements of modern 'christianity', to Babylonian religious practice. its quite interesting, but , in my opinion, not wholly accurate.
This thread is NOT about the accusing believers; it's not even entirely about Catholicism per se; I wanted to use Catholicism as an example of what I see as organised, hierarchical Babylonic religion with its associated trappings and errors. My apologies for any personal offence taken by any previous posts.
As an example: if anyone interested truly c ...[text shortened]... ’m not judging believers; I of all people have no right too. But we can judge the religion.