Spirituality
12 Jan 08
13 Jan 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungFair enough, however, what if I prophesied about Russia being the center of the worlds attentinon and a place that all the nations of the world will meet one day to do battle?
If you'd made a prophecy about Russia before the end of the Cold War, you'd have found that it existed again after having vanished for a while.
Nations are in constant change, and people often go back and resurrect old place names.
13 Jan 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI guess you can't win. I mean the prophesies about Christ being fulfilled in the OT that are mentioned in the NT are said to be either constructed to match or somehow Christ purposefully tried to fulfill them himself. Now we have end times prophesies being fulfilled right before our very eyes and all that one can say is coincidence or they are coming about because people believe in them and, therefore, are making them come about.
Sounds like US military "Prophecies" about how the Cold War would end.
13 Jan 08
Originally posted by whodeyI've spent quite a bit of time studying Biblical prophecy in Daniel, and I am not impressed. I think you are evaluating improperly the quality and specificity of the prophecies but rather interpreting events to fit these vague predictions that can be interpreted any number of ways.
I guess you can't win. I mean the prophesies about Christ being fulfilled in the OT that are mentioned in the NT are said to be either constructed to match or somehow Christ purposefully tried to fulfill them himself. Now we have end times prophesies being fulfilled right before our very eyes and all that one can say is coincidence or they are coming about because people believe in them and, therefore, are making them come about.
13 Jan 08
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThere is a decoder ring quality to them, I will give you that. Both in Daniel and Revelation the constent theme is, "He who has an ear, let him hear, or the wise may comprehend these sayings." It is obvious to me, or at least to the authors, that these are not ment to be black and white prophesies for all to understand. Having said that, one of the most impressive prophesies I have run across is Daniel 9:24-27. It is another somewhat obscure prophesy, however, Jewish rabbis interpreted it to mean that he Messiah should have come the first time about the time of Christ. For me, they are wiser in interpreting that verse than you or I. Their explanation was that the Messiah tarries because of the sinfulness of Israel because they reject Christ as Messiah. Also, read Isaiah 53. I don't know how one could read it and not see that it is talking blantantly about Christ. It just boggles my mind. I could only accept that the story about Christ in the NT was made up to fulfill the prophesies as being the only viable alternative.
I've spent quite a bit of time studying Biblical prophecy in Daniel, and I am not impressed. I think you are evaluating improperly the quality and specificity of the prophecies but rather interpreting events to fit these vague predictions that can be interpreted any number of ways.
13 Jan 08
Originally posted by whodey"Jewish Rabbis"? Or "Jewish Rabbis who are really Christians"? "Jewish Rabbis who got convenient results"?
There is a decoder ring quality to them, I will give you that. Both in Daniel and Revelation the constent theme is, "He who has an ear, let him hear, or the wise may comprehend these sayings." It is obvious to me, or at least to the authors, that these are not ment to be black and white prophesies for all to understand. Having said that, one of the most im ...[text shortened]... Christ in the NT was made up to fulfill the prophesies as being the only viable alternative.
Or is it really a consensus in the Jewish community?
13 Jan 08
4 edits
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWhat I am referring to are writings in the Talmud which are historical commentaries by rabbis concerning the Torah. One such rabbi was a man named Maimonides or rabbi Moses Ben Maimon. He wrote, "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise (rabbis) have barred the calculation of the days of the Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the end times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" (Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3 p.24) Maimonides was a Judist who lived around 1190 and he simply believed that these prophesies had not come about as of yet even though according to Daniel they had been scheduled to have come about already. If you don't believe me, google him. What he was and what he said are of historical record.
"Jewish Rabbis"? Or "Jewish Rabbis who are really Christians"? "Jewish Rabbis who got convenient results"?
Or is it really a consensus in the Jewish community?
Another rabbi named Leopold Cohn may be of interest to you as well. He was born in Hungry in 1862 and studied to become a rabbi. Every day during his training he was required to say, "I believe with a perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah, and though he tarry, yet will I wait daily for his coming" Leopold then got to wondering why the Messiah tarried and began asking questions. He also came across the writings on the Talmud concerning Daniel 9:24 and he was told that the Messiah tarried because of the sinfulness of Israel. Not satisfied he probed more into the quesiton and then was told by his mentors to leave well enough alone, that is if he wished to have a profession in Judism as a rabbi. Well to make a long story short he chose Jesus as Messiah over his profession as a rabbi. He then sailed to America and began the "Jews for Jesus" movement in the US.
14 Jan 08
Originally posted by muppymanIs it a coincidence that Daniel gave a calendar for the coming of the Messiah and later Jewish scholars interpreted it as coming when Christ walked the earth even though they reject him as Messiah?
I heard somewhere that prophesies wait around hoping to ambush innocent coincidences. I am inclined to subscribe to that promulgation
14 Jan 08
Originally posted by whodeyThen you would be a false prophet.
Fair enough, however, what if I prophesied about Russia being the center of the worlds attentinon and a place that all the nations of the world will meet one day to do battle?
The problem with prophesy is that it is easily to interpret statements in many different ways.
For example "all the nations of the world" - who are they? As far as I know, there is no universally agreed list of countries let alone 'nations', yet most people would quite readily accept about 10 countries as fulfilling such a prophesy despite there being well over 100 groups of people calling themselves 'nations'.
And as for "the center of the worlds attention" that is so vague that one newspaper story would satisfy some people while to truly satisfy it in a strict sense would be almost impossible. In fact, a significant percentage of the worlds population doesn't even know of the existence of Russia.
