08 Sep 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadI did start off skeptical, became nearly convinced, then, after further investigation, realised it was bull and manipulation of numbers.
You should have started off skeptical in the first place and only got convinced after further study (if the results warranted it).
In my experience most Biblical prophesy falls into one or more of the following broad categories:
1. Too vague or too likely. This refers to prophesies that could easily fit a large number of future outcomes, or would have b ...[text shortened]... ite likely that that was perfectly acceptable behavior at the time and not considered deception.
08 Sep 08
Originally posted by znshoIt is difficult to calculate such prophesies as you have mentioned for the simple reason that they calculated things a tad bit differently than we do today. Today we just say X number of years this will occur but using Biblical calendars you wind up having to get a calculator and slide ruler out to understand what exactly they are saying. Take for example Daniel 9:24-27. This prophesy tells of the Messiah coming. One thing about it is that there is no dispute that Daniel was written some 500 years before the appearance of Christ. In addition, the numbers can be worked out to indicate that the prophesy points to Christ as Messiah, however, once again not every one is in agreement because their interpretation of the numbers may be a little different. However, one thing is for sure and that is no matter your interpretation, it appears from the prophesy that the Messiah should have come by now. In addition, Rabbis have written in the Torah that the prophesy points to the time of Christ even though they reject him as Messiah. For me this is the clincher because what you have are Jewish scholars who should be able to interpret such ancient Jewish calculations who have calculated it to be the time of Christ but who have no motivation for making the numbers work because they reject Christ as Messiah. In fact, one of the Rabbis forbade the calculation of the prophesy in question so as not to lead people to the notion that Christ was the Messiah.
I did start off skeptical, became nearly convinced, then, after further investigation, realised it was bull and manipulation of numbers.
08 Sep 08
Originally posted by whodeyOne thing about it is that there is no dispute that Daniel was written some 500 years before the appearance of Christ.
It is difficult to calculate such prophesies as you have mentioned for the simple reason that they calculated things a tad bit differently than we do today. Today we just say X number of years this will occur but using Biblical calendars you wind up having to get a calculator and slide ruler out to understand what exactly they are saying. Take for example D ...[text shortened]... of the prophesy in question so as not to lead people to the notion that Christ was the Messiah.
Yes, there is—
“The portrayal of Daniel as a Jewish exile in Babylon creates a literary setting in the sixth century B.C.E. The visions he receives there thus appear to provide insights into events in Judea in later centuries. But the literary setting is not the setting in which the book was actually written. The fact that ch. 11 obviously refers to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Seleucid ruler from Syria, makes it clear that the book took its final form during Antiochus’s persecution of the Jews, which began with the desecration of the temple in 167 B.C.E. ...
“Much of the material in chs. 1-6 probably originated in the fourth and third centuries B.C.E. and circulated independently before being joined to the visions. The inaccurate description of Antiochus’s reign and of his death indicates that the book was finished before these took place in 164 B.C.E. The process by which the book was composed is further complicated by the fact it is written in two languages, Hebrew (1.1-2.4a; 8.1-12.13) and Aramaic (2.4b-7.28). The language divisions do not correspond to the content divisions.”
—Pamela J. Milne, Ph.D., Associate Professor of Religious Studies, University of Windsor, Canada; essay quoted here in The Harper-Collins Study Bible: new revised Standard Version, 1993—all italics mine.
That is sufficient to establish scholarly dispute, which is all I intend.
In addition, Rabbis have written in the Torah that the prophesy points to the time of Christ even though they reject him as Messiah. For me this is the clincher because what you have are Jewish scholars who should be able to interpret such ancient Jewish calculations who have calculated it to be the time of Christ but who have no motivation for making the numbers work because they reject Christ as Messiah. In fact, one of the Rabbis forbade the calculation of the prophesy in question so as not to lead people to the notion that Christ was the Messiah.
You seem to have not yet understood the form and nature of rabbinical argumentation in the Talmud (not the Torah—but that was just a slip on your part), nor their hermeneutical paradigm. Even the rabbis do not give such authority to one another as you do.
Curiously, you do not accept all rabbinical interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures in the same way... 🙂
09 Sep 08
Originally posted by vistesdAll I know vistesd is that there seems to be a rabbinical consensus that according to Daniels prophesy, the Messiah should have come by now. In fact, they blame the sinfulness of Israel for him delaying his coming.
Curiously, you do not accept all rabbinical interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures in the same way... 🙂[/b]
10 Sep 08
Originally posted by znshoI was unable to access your youtube web site you posted for whatever reason, however, I went on the web and found this.
Yeah, awwright, awright, awwwrrrhight.
Wot abart Leviticus 26:18-26? One times 7 or 7 to the power of 4?
http://focusonjerusalem.com/theyearofthecountdown.html
In it, it states, "The year 1948 marked the end of one Divine Countdown and the beginning of another. The first Divine Countdown dealt with the durations of Israel's Diaspora. In Ezekiel 4:5-6, the prophet records the period determined by God as punishment for Israel's disobedience; "For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, 300 and 90 days; so will thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when you have accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and you will bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed you each day for a year." Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, 70 years after Judah lost independence to Bablylon as Jeremiah predicted. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bibles book Leviticus. In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. That is 2,520 Jewish lunar years x the 360-day lunar calendar works out to 907,200 days. Divide that by 365 and you come up with 2,485.479 years from 536 BC brings us to the end of the first quarter of the year 1949, exactly one year after Israel's restoration in 1948. But 1 BC and 1 AD were the same year, so the actual date on our calendar that Ezekiel predicted the restoration of Israel corresponds to late spring 1948.
The article then goes on to say that the end of the first count down triggered the beginning of the second countdown. They quote the passage which Jesus says that, "This generation will not pass, until all be fulfilled." Thus they speculate that Christ was speaking of the generation that was living after the end of the first countdown here. Of course, this time frame is vague which they argue is true to the teaching that no man knows the day or time of the Lord's return. So I guess according to this interpretation, we don't have much time left. We only have until the end of a time span of one living generation since 1948.
Does this reference do justice to the site you were inquiring about?
10 Sep 08
Originally posted by whodeyYes, this is basically it.
I was unable to access your youtube web site you posted for whatever reason, however, I went on the web and found this.
http://focusonjerusalem.com/theyearofthecountdown.html
In it, it states, "The year 1948 marked the end of one Divine Countdown and the beginning of another. The first Divine Countdown dealt with the durations of Israel's Diaspora. In ...[text shortened]... since 1948.
Does this reference do justice to the site you were inquiring about?
My point is, if you read the verses immediately following Leviticus 26:18, God has threatened to increase the punishment by 7-fold in the face of disobedience another 3 times! Thus, one must multiply 360 biblocal years by 7 to the power of 4, not just 7. The Christians who think this a wonderful Prophecy proving the veracity of the Bible have conveniently ignored Leviticus 26:21-26.
In addition, the verses in Leviticus do not mention time. They simply mention the type of punishment such as disease, ferocious animals, even cannibalism.
10 Sep 08
Originally posted by znshoNot that I have studied this at any great length, however, just looking at it I think the argument could be made that the author is reiterating the 7-fold punishment. It would be akin to me saying that for 7 years, I will lay waste to you for your disobedience and then later reiterate this by saying that for 7 years I will create plagues for you etc. I could be referring to the same 7 years even though I have repeated myself in two different ways.
Yes, this is basically it.
My point is, if you read the verses immediately following Leviticus 26:18, God has threatened to increase the punishment by 7-fold in the face of disobedience another 3 times! Thus, one must multiply 360 biblocal years by 7 to the power of 4, not just 7. The Christians who think this a wonderful Prophecy proving the veracity of th ...[text shortened]... They simply mention the type of punishment such as disease, ferocious animals, even cannibalism.
You are correct in that it does not mention time per say, rather, it simply says that things will get worse times 7, whatever that means?
11 Sep 08
Originally posted by whodeyThat is how Christians argue it, although my Good News Bible uses the term 'again' in Levticus 26:21-26. My 'old-speak' Bible suggests the pinishment will be increased again and again in the face of continued disobedience.
Not that I have studied this at any great length, however, just looking at it I think the argument could be made that the author is reiterating the 7-fold punishment. It would be akin to me saying that for 7 years, I will lay waste to you for your disobedience and then later reiterate this by saying that for 7 years I will create plagues for you etc. I coul ...[text shortened]... on time per say, rather, it simply says that things will get worse times 7, whatever that means?
11 Sep 08
Originally posted by znshoI guess that is what interpretations are all about, eh?
That is how Christians argue it, although my Good News Bible uses the term 'again' in Levticus 26:21-26. My 'old-speak' Bible suggests the pinishment will be increased again and again in the face of continued disobedience.
Well if nothing else, thanks, for bringing it to my attention. I will have to study it further.
Now if you really want to rattle your cage a bit, check out the countdown calendar for the coming Messiah in Daniel 9:24-27. There is NO doubt as to the fact it is a calendar for the coming of the Messiah. For me, it is mind blowing to say the least to even have the gonades to even create a time table like this.
11 Sep 08
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyFrom a quick glance at those verses, it looks to me like Daniel was predicting the coming of the messiah in 70 weeks. Or am I missing something?
Now if you really want to rattle your cage a bit, check out the countdown calendar for the coming Messiah in Daniel 9:24-27. There is NO doubt as to the fact it is a calendar for the coming of the Messiah. For me, it is mind blowing to say the least to even have the gonades to even create a time table like this.
And what exactly is mind blowing again?
11 Sep 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadHere is the verse in question. Daniel 9:24-27
From a quick glance at those verses, it looks to me like Daniel was predicting the coming of the messiah in 70 weeks. Or am I missing something?
And what exactly is mind blowing again?
24 "70 weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression for iniquity, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks; the streets will be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."
26 "And after threescore and two weeks will Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof will be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
27 "And he will confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the midst of the week will he cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he will make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined will be poured upon the desolate."
11 Sep 08
Originally posted by whodeyHere is a break down of the verse in question.
Here is the verse in question. Daniel 9:24-27
24 "70 weeks are determined upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression for iniquity, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
25 "Know ther ...[text shortened]... ate, even until the consummation, and that determined will be poured upon the desolate."
http://100prophesies.org/weeks.htm
Crhonological summary of Daniel 9:24-26
1. There would be a decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
2. Jerusalem and the Temple would be rebuilt.
3. Then an anointed one (Messiah) would be "cut off" (an idiom for rejected or killed)
4. Then Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed again.
Summary of how Daniel 9:24-26 was fulfilled.
1. After the Medo-Persians had conquered the Babylonian empire about 2540 years ago, they ruled a vast empire that included the land of Israel. About 2446 years later (about 445 BC), Persian king Artaxerxes gave permission to the Jews to rebuild Jerusalem, which was still in ruins after having been destroyed earlier by the Babylonians.
2. The Jews rebuilt the Temple and the city of Jerusalem.
3. Then, in about 33 AD, Jesus entered Jerusalem as the Messiah who had been promised by the Old Testament prophets. But, many people rejected Jesus as the Messiah and he was crucified by the Romans.
4. About 40 years later after Jesus was crucified, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. (The temple has not been rebuilt since).
Pretty impressive so far even without calculating the dates, no?
Fulfillment to the day, regarding Daniel 9:24-26 according to scholars such as Josh McDowell.
First McDowell, and other scholars, seperate the prophecy into three parts.
1. The "7 sevens" in Daniel 9:25.
2. The "62 sevens" in Daniel 9:25
3. And the 70th "seven" in Daniel 9:27
Then, they combine the first two periods for a total of 69 "sevens". They combined the first two periods because it is at the completion of those two periods that the anointed one appears, and that is what we are trying to calculate - when the anointed one was suppose to appear.
Next, they interpret the "sevens" as "seven years" or periods of seven years, rather than a period of seven days or seven weeks or seven months. Part of the reason that this is interpreted as "years" is because of the reference to years in Daniel 9:2. (Daniel 9:2 referes to the "seventy years" prophecy that Jeremiah spoke of in Jeremiah 25)
The Mathematics of calculating Daniel
At this point, we are adding 7 "sevens" and the 62 "sevens" for a total of 69 "sevens". And we are interpreting the 69 "sevens" to mean 69 periods of seven years, for a total of 483 years. So, we are saying that there would be a period of 483 years from the time that a decree is given to rebuild Jerusalem to the time that a Messiah is to appear.
Some Christian scholars say that the period of 483 years should not be thought of in terms of our modern solar calendar which is based on a 365.25 days to a year. Instead, we are to use a "prophetic" calendar which has 360 days to a year. Many ancient calendars, including Jewish calendar, was based upon a lunar year of 12 months, with each month lasting 30 days each. Many ancient peoples, including the ancient Jews, did realize that there actually were more than 360 days to a year and so they would tack on an extra 5 days at some point during the year.
So we take the 483 years that we had calculated earlier and we multiply the 483 by 360. In other words, we are viewing the 483 year period described in Daniel 9:25 as "prophetic years" of 360 day each. And, 483 times 360 equals 173,880. And that gives us a total of 173,880 days.
Now, we want to apply these 173,880 days to our calendar, which has 365.25 days to a year. Why? So that we can use our calendar in trying to to figure out the year that this part of Daniel's prophecy was to begin its fulfillment and when this part of Daniel's prophecy was to be completed. So, we divide the 173,880 days into years of 365.25 days. And, that equals 476 (solar) years. Now, we need to figure out when this 476 year period was supposed to begin.
When was Daniel's "69 weeks of years" suppose to begin?
At this point we are trying to figure out when the 476 year period begins. The prophesy 9:24-26 begins with a decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Many people have proposed different years for different decrees. And I won't pretend to have the "only correct answer", because I don't know if I have that or not. In any event, here are four decrees that are often discussed in relation to Daniel 9:24-26.
1. The decree from Cyrus in 539 BC (see Ezra 1:1-4)
2. The decree from Darius in 519 BC (see Ezra 5:3-7)
3. The decree from Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457 BC. (see Ezra 7:11-16)
4. The decree from Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 444 BC (see Nehemiah 2:1-8)
(The article then goes into why the decree in 444 BC is the most widely accepted starting point. Read it on the web site if interested)
We are now at the point where we can try to pinpoint when the Messiah was suppose to make his appearance. If we agree on the points that have already made, then we simply calculate 476 years into the future, using 444 BC as the starting point. To do that, if I am not mistaken, we count 443 BC as the first of 476 years. Why, because the first began in 444 BC and ended in 443 BC. so we start counting from 443 BC. So, we have 443 years on the BC side of measuring time and that leaves us with 33 years on the AD side to account for 476 years. Using this formula, we arrive at 33 AD the year in time in which the Messiah was to appear. And this is when we see Christ riding on a donkey into Jerusalem being hailed king of the Jews.
11 Sep 08
2 edits
Wait, there is more!!
Of course there are those who would question the interpretation of Daniel, however, who should we trust? After all, Christians will try to prove their side by accepting the interpretation and atheists will find ways to try and refute the interpretation. However, there is another source to consider. A hand full of ancient rabbis agree that it is correct to view Daniel 9 as providing a time line for the arrival of a Messiah.
Maimonides (Rabbi Mosses Ben Maimon), stated, "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise rabbis have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" (Igeret Teiman, Chapters 3 p.24)
Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi writes, "I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of the Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophesy of Daniel (The Messiah of the Targums, Talmuds and Rabbinical Writers, 1971)
So what we have here are Jewish scholars that agree that Daniel 9:24-26 points to the coming of the Messiah and that time has passed. The question then must be asked, why if they reject Christ as Messiah? Would it not be in there best interest to say that Daniel has not pointed to the time of Christ? Perhaps this is why Maimonides said that the calculation has been barred from the "average Joe" so as not to lead them astray? Sorry Maims. 🙁
So how do these rabbis then live with the fact that Daniel points to the time of Christ as the coming of the Messiah but still insist on rejecting him? Perhaps a man by the name of Leopold Cohn can help shed som e light on the matter. Rabbi Cohn lived in Hungry in the 1800's. During his training as a rabbi, it seemed as though he had a promising future as he graduated from the Talmudic Academy with high marks. However, he was troubled by one of this daily rituals as a rabbi which was to recite the following: "I believe with a perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah, and though he tarry, yet will I wait daily for his coming."
In essence, Cohn began to inquire as to why the Messiah tarried, but he was unsettled by the answers. In researching the Talmud, Cohn discovered that many rabbis before him had wrested with the same nagging question that was nagging him. The conclusion for those rabbis that came before him was that the Messiah must not have come when Daniel prophesied because of the sinfulness of Israel. In effect, their sinfulness must have negated the prophesy. He then calculated the prophesy and realized that it pointed to the time of Christ. Cohn then went to his mentor about his findings hoping to find answers, however, he was basically told to leave well enough alone, that is, if he wanted to continue being a rabbi.
So there Cohn was faced with throwing away his career and lively hood or throwing away the truth he had uncovered. He chose to throw away his career instead of the truth he felt he had uncovered and later came to the US. It was there that he later formed the movement knows as the "Jews for Jesus" which are still active around the world.