31 Jan 11
Originally posted by LemonJello"How could there exist a God that created all that exists? In order for that to be the case, He would have to have created Himself, too, right? How would that work, exactly?"
How could there exist a God that created all that exists? In order for that to be the case, He would have to have created Himself, too, right? How would that work, exactly?
[b]If there is a God that created all that exists, then all that exists belongs to God.
True...vacuously true, since the antecedent is false.
The following is also true: If there is a God that created all that exists, then nothing belongs to God.[/b]
No. It does not follow that since God created all that exists, that He would have had to create Himself. God is not a created being.
Is the logic too complicated for you? It should be! It begins with an infinite being who's nature and existence is beyond comprehension.
"If there is a God that created all that exists, then all that exists belongs to God."(My quote)
"True...vacuously true, since the antecedent is false."
The antecedent is not false. I said "if there is a God".
"The following is also true: If there is a God that created all that exists, then nothing belongs to God."
Prove that is true. There's no logic to it.
31 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by karoly aczel===================================
Not to mention the concept of ownership, which is erroneous as it implies dualism, is counterintuitive to the understanding of any workable concept of God.
Not to mention the concept of ownership, which is erroneous as it implies dualism, is counterintuitive to the understanding of any workable concept of God.
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Does a correct concept of ownership verses an erroneous concept imply dualism also ?
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by whodeyJob 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
The concept behind fearing God is to shune evil. In other words, wisdom comes when you realize that "sin", i.e. not doing Gods will, causes pain and suffering in your life and in the life of others.
I'm curious whodey, as I am still learning what it means to fear God, is it beyond the realm of possibility that by knowing God can do as He pleases with us, that He should be rightfully respected out of a motivation of fear?
If fear is the beginning of wisdom, then why pussyfoot around it?(not saying that's what you're doing)
God can wipe out all of creation in a moment. That is something to really fear.
31 Jan 11
2 edits
Originally posted by josephwNo. It does not follow that since God created all that exists, that He would have had to create Himself. God is not a created being.
[b]"How could there exist a God that created all that exists? In order for that to be the case, He would have to have created Himself, too, right? How would that work, exactly?"
No. It does not follow that since God created all that exists, that He would have had to create Himself. God is not a created being.
Is the logic too complicated for you? ts, then nothing belongs to God."[/b]
Prove that is true. There's no logic to it.[/b]
Yes it does follow. The fact remains that you, of course, think God exists. And anything that exists falls under the subject of "all that exists". So, you unfortunately cannot even follow your own line of thinking. If there is indeed some being that created "all that exists", then it follows naturally that every thing that does exist was created by this being. And yet you want to hold that this being Himself -- something that does exist --- was not created.
The end result is that you are literally just contradicting yourself.
The antecedent is not false. I said [b]"if there is a God".[/b]
Duh, I know you said something of the form "If [the antecedent], then [the consequent]." But if the antecedent is false, then the whole conditional is just vacuously true.
Prove that is true. There's no logic to it.
I'm afraid it is perfectly logical. You just do not understand the truth functionality at play.
Oh well. My point is simply that you should instead witness by presenting some actual reasons for me to think your God exists, already! Your handing me statements of the form "If God exists, then [this, that, and the other dreadful fate] is going to befall you!" simply does not give me any actual reasons to think your theism is true. I should just respond "But it is not the case that God exists." That is, I will just deny the antecedent until you give me some actual reasons to take it seriously.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by jaywillThe concept of ownership, period.
[b]===================================
Not to mention the concept of ownership, which is erroneous as it implies dualism, is counterintuitive to the understanding of any workable concept of God.
===========================
Does a correct concept of ownership verses an erroneous concept imply dualism also ?[/b]
For example, we are under the illusion that we own land or our homes, but really ,we are just custodians of the land.
Please dont misunderstand me and think that I am telling people to give up wordly posseisions or anything like that. I am saying only what I'm saying, ie. we dont own anything. And yes , "God" owns everything, but what does it matter? "He's" into quality and not quantity and any ownership beyond what you and your family needs to survive physically in an unessary hinderance to our proper understanding of god.
31 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by whodeyYes, I see that line of thinking as a basic explanation for maybe children upto the age of 12 or so.
The concept behind fearing God is to shune evil. In other words, wisdom comes when you realize that "sin", i.e. not doing Gods will, causes pain and suffering in your life and in the life of others.
Essentially, it is just a story to introduce either children or persons that have had no previous understanding of spirituality to "God".
Remeber, "evil" is not really real , as the thread bearing that title ("evil" ) has shown.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by LemonJelloWhy is it so difficult for you to see that all that exists is evidence for a creator?
[b]No. It does not follow that since God created all that exists, that He would have had to create Himself. God is not a created being.
Yes it does follow. The fact remains that you, of course, think God exists. And anything that exists falls under the subject of "all that exists". So, you unfortunately cannot even follow your own line of thinki ...[text shortened]... st deny the antecedent until you give me some actual reasons to take it seriously.[/b]
I'll tell you why. Because you have been lied to about the truth for so long you now believe there is no truth to believe except that which conforms to your world view.
You know how it works. People believe all kinds of things that aren't true because they believe a lie.
Now, you just heard it, and deep down inside you know it's true, but still you will balk at it to protect your precious sense of self. (not meant as a threat)
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by josephwWhy is it so difficult for you to see that all that exists is evidence for a creator?
Why is it so difficult for you to see that all that exists is evidence for a creator?
I'll tell you why. Because you have been lied to about the truth for so long you now believe there is no truth to believe except that which conforms to your world view.
You know how it works. People believe all kinds of things that aren't true because they believe a l ...[text shortened]... but still you will balk at it to protect your precious sense of self. (not meant as a threat)
Why is it so difficult for you to present actual reasons that should garner the assent of my intellect that your God does in fact exist? Like I said, you can impress upon me any of number of ways, supposing your God does exist, that He could smite me for whatever reason at all. That, however, does not provide any actual reasons for me to think the proposition that such a God exists is true.
I'll tell you why. Because you have been lied to about the truth for so long you now believe there is no truth to believe except that which conforms to your world view.
You know how it works. People believe all kinds of things that aren't true because they believe a lie.
Physician, heal thyself. How silly that you have bought into the lie that a loving God would smite those who have no sufficient reasons at their disposal to think He exists.
Now, you just heard it, and deep down inside you know it's true
Give over.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by whodeyBut of course, only christians, and only CERTAIN christian sects, can tell us the true nature of god and what this god's will is. And you know this because of a book written 2000 years ago, written by men to control other men and to subjugate women. No god required there.
The concept behind fearing God is to shune evil. In other words, wisdom comes when you realize that "sin", i.e. not doing Gods will, causes pain and suffering in your life and in the life of others.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by josephwOK, lets us assume that God exists - where God is the owner of all that exists.
...not to fear God.
If there is a God that created all that exists, then all that exists belongs to God.
Right?
Why is it wise for me to fear him?
I think it is wise to fear something that is reasonably likely to cause you harm, and you can do something to prevent it. However it does not follow that the existence of an owner implies that that owner will harm you or is likely to harm you or that you can do something to prevent or minimize that harm.
31 Jan 11
Originally posted by whodeyWell I for one have seen no evidence of that. In addition, the Bible specifically lists a number of instances where the opposite is true.
The concept behind fearing God is to shune evil. In other words, wisdom comes when you realize that "sin", i.e. not doing Gods will, causes pain and suffering in your life and in the life of others.
31 Jan 11
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwThe Vedic teachings teach us that there are different relationships one can have with the Lord....
...not to fear God.
If there is a God that created all that exists, then all that exists belongs to God.
Right?
1. Conjugal love.
2. Awe and reverence.
3. Servitude.
4. Friendship.
5. Parental.
Never fear.