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Neither ToO or Rajk are believers. They're only here to entertain themselves by trolling Christians.
I said I would attempt to not get personal.
However, one poster sounds at least like a THEIST - Rajk999.
The other I cannot tell.
Both quote the letter of the Bible as to give the impression that it is the word of God.
A Jehovah's Witness at least is a believer in God, as would be a Bahai, some Unitarians. One who derived many concepts which SOUND like Jehovah's Witness teaching could also clearly be a theist.
ToO points mightily to the letter of the Bible. Do you think he is one who believes that God exists?
@sonship saidJesus said what He said.
@ThinkOfOne
...and only after an individual has fully transformed and produces "good fruit" and "good fruit" only, do they belong in the group described thus:
I ask you again then. NAME a disciple in the New Testament who was in this "fully transformed" and fruit producing state ?
If you cannot name ANYONE I will accept as an answer that you c ...[text shortened]... You have many names from the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles [/b] to name SPECIFICALLY.
How does your request change what Jesus said? It' doesn't. It's irrelevant. It's a red herring. Your request is an act of desperation since you are unable to refute the words spoken by Jesus during His ministry.
Jesus said what He said. "He who has ears, let him hear".
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Jesus said what He said.
I heard what Jesus said. Here again it is a matter not only of what God said, but of what ELSE God said.
Good reading comprehension is not enough I think. Some EXPERIENCE as a Christian is also useful.
The fourth kind of soil was obviously a soil that was tilled, cultivated, and dealt with. The Christian of some experience knows that he has to take heed to his heart once he receives the word of the kingdom.
Hard stones underneath the surface like hidden sins must be confessed and forsaken. This takes time.
Anxiety of daily living has to be dealt with in learning and in a growing trust. This takes time and growth.
So the soil that allowed the seed to produce various amounts of fruit should represent the heart that is DEALT WITH, cultivated over time. No farmer can snap his fingers and instantaneously all the problems in the soil are removed in a second.
While the PROCESS of dealing with one's heart goes on, fruit appears. And more fruit appears for the Lord. And more fruit appears for the Lord. This is not just a doctrinal matter. This is a matter of knowing by experience.
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How does your request change what Jesus said?
I have no intention to "change" what Jesus said.
Jesus ALSO said other things. Taken together and considering the experience of the believers over the past 20 some centuries is a factor in my understanding.
In John 17 Jesus prayed that His disciples would be PERFECTED. To be PERFECTED should mean PROCESS. And PROCESS requires the passage of time and the deepening and expanding and development of the PROCESS.
"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:23)
It is noted that you did not SPECIFY by NAME any disciple of Christ in the rest of the whole New Testament who was an example of the fruit producing hearted believer in Christ.
I would start by stating without hesitation that the twelve disciples (with Judas's replacement) were the first to have hearts dealt with that began to bear "fruit" unto the kingdom of God.
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It' doesn't. It's irrelevant. It's a red herring. Your request is an act of desperation since you are unable to refute the words spoken by Jesus during His ministry.
You may call my request an act of desperation. So be it. I desperately want you to point to someone who we could see as a MODEL, an EXAMPLE of a disciple with a fruit producing heart for the kingdom of God.
The fact that you refuse appears to me more of a desperation on your side that NO SUCH human being could be looked to represent one.
The desperation appears to me to be YOURS, to assure the world that the New Testament is 100% theoretical. No one was produced by the Gospel of the kingdom that we could look to as a demonstration, a witness of its reality.
Jesus said what He said. "He who has ears, let him hear".
This is your SELECTIVE reminder to HEAR Jesus when it most easily seems to support your philosophy. I don't think ANYONE still on this Forum knows for sure that you believe in God or the Son of God.
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@sonship saidWhile the PROCESS of dealing with one's heart goes on, fruit appears. And more fruit appears for the Lord. And more fruit appears for the Lord.
@ThinkOfOne
Jesus said what He said.
I heard what Jesus said. Here again it is a matter not only of what God said, but of what ELSE God said.
Good reading comprehension is not enough I think. Some EXPERIENCE as a Christian is also useful.
The fourth kind of soil was obviously a soil that was tilled, cultivated, and dealt with. The Christian of so ...[text shortened]... ppears for the Lord. This is not just a doctrinal matter. This is a matter of knowing by experience.
According to Jesus, whatever "fruit" is being produced by a given "tree" is either all "good fruit" or all "bad fruit".
“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire".
Jesus is very explicit and very clear about this.
This is not just a doctrinal matter. This is a matter of knowing by experience.
Evidently in his mind, HIS experience supersedes the words spoken by Jesus.
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According to Jesus, whatever "fruit" is being produced by a given "tree" is either all "good fruit" or all "bad fruit".
And Jesus sent apostles. One of them wrote of the transformation of the soul.
"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is ..." (Rom. 12:2)
While the mind is undergoing transformation, fruit unto God is encreasing.
"But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18)
While the transformation from one degree of glory to the next, to the next, to the next UNTO the same image is taking place, fruit unto God is appearing.
"And put on the new man, which is being RENEWED unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him ..." (Col. 3:10)
While the new man is being put on by the process of this RENEWING more and better fruit unto God is being produced.
" But holding to truth in love we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ." (Eph. 4:15)
As the members of His Body are GROWING up into Him in this thing, in that thing, in more things, and in ALL THINGS more and more fruit unto God is being produced.
" ... the truth of the gospel, which has come to you, even as it is also in all the world, bearing fruit and GROWING, as also in you ..." (Col. 1:6)
As the believers are growing spiritually they are more and more producing fruit unto God.
The Christian heart of one day old may bear some fruit.
The growth of Christ in that heart next year may bear some fruit.
The growth of Christ in that heart in two years may bear some more fruit.
And if growth is normal fruit unto God may increase as transformation does.
Why should we listen to any attempt to say "Only those fully matured bear good fruit."
What secular philosophical nonsense is this to teach Christians [i]"Now only will God recognize fruit unto Him from you until the day you are fully matured."
What incentive is that to want to grow up into Him in all things?
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“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire".
I appreciate "It is written ...". But we also have to consider "Again it is written ..."
And we suspect that "while He walked the earth" is coded language for "IGNORE most of the rest of the New Testament".
Now let's consider just your beloved "red letters".
It is ALSO written from the Lord Jesus that if we learn to ABIDE in Him the Father will see fruit and tend to the branches that they bear MORE fruit.
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;
and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it that it may bear more fruit." (John 15:1,2)
The pruning of the husbandman causes the maturation of the fruit bearing branch. The Father works to make the branch more fruitful.
A new branch may bear one fruit. An older pruned once branch bear two or three fruits. A branch submitted to more and deeper pruning may bear even more fruit.
The believer bore some fruit on day one of his Christian life.
As he and (if he) allows the Father to prune him more fruit is produced for God. As he learns to abide in the realm of the living Christ, fruit comes more.
@sonship saidPut it all together jaywill
“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire".
I appreciate "It is written ...". But we also have to consider [b]"Again i ...[text shortened]... ruit is produced for God. As he learns to abide in the realm of the living Christ, fruit comes more.
According to Jesus, whatever "fruit" is being produced by a given "tree" is either all "good fruit" or all "bad fruit". Every tree that does not bear "good fruit" is "thrown into the fire":
“For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit."
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire".
...and only after an individual has fully transformed and produces "good fruit" and "good fruit" only, do they belong in the group described thus:
“And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”
Those that have been fully transformed and produce "good fruit" and "good fruit" only are pruned, so that those that bear only "thirty" may eventually bring forth "sixty" and maybe even a "hundredfold". Every tree that does not bear "good fruit" is "thrown into the fire":
"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."
All of those passages point to the same things and are consistent with each other.
Jesus said what He said. "He who has ears, let him hear".
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All of those passages point to the same things and are consistent with each other.
Jesus said what He said. "He who has ears, let him hear".
I have read and understood your point clearly. And I would say that you have even argued it well.
Now if I ask you a simple question, you should answer. Before you think to evade it, remember that I have said something I think I have never told you before - I think you have argued your point well.
NOW, HERE IS THE QUESTION.
Do you believe that Christ's words - "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" apply also to:
Rom. 12:2
2 Cor. 3:18
Colossian 3:10
Eph. 4:15
Colossians 1:6 ?
All these verses from the New Testament I used to get a fuller view of what "Again, it is written...".
Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ wants His disciples to also HEAR what those verses say AS WELL?
Yes or No ?
@sonship saidNo.
@SecondSon
ToO points mightily to the letter of the Bible. Do you think he is one who believes that God exists?
ToO and Rajk are both frauds. They are here simply to employ a tactic they've developed to disrupt a coherent discourse relative to even the most fundamental truths of God's Word, and especially the doctrine of salvation.
Clever little trolls they are, spewing discord with their one note song. Reprobates, past feeling.
Ephesians 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Believe me. I don't say that lightly. We can only pray that God will grant them repentance.
@sonship saidJesus emphasized the importance of HIS words time and time again:
@ThinkOfOne
All of those passages point to the same things and are consistent with each other.
Jesus said what He said. "He who has ears, let him hear".
I have read and understood your point clearly. And I would say that you have even argued it well.
Now if I ask you a simple question, you should answer. Before you think to evade it, remember that ...[text shortened]... Christ wants His disciples to also HEAR what those verses say AS WELL?
Yes or No ?
"If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" John 8
"the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." John 6
"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day." John 12
"He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me. These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you." John 14
""For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." John 18
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live" John 5
Unless people understand His word, they cannot believe and follow His word no less keep and abide in His word . They cannot "listen to [His] voice".
When Jesus said, "He who has ears, let him hear" it was usually as way to emphasize that what He just finished saying was of the utmost importance.
The point was for people to listen to HIS voice. Not the voice of others. It is HIS voice and his voice alone that His sheep follow.
John 10
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
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@ThinkOfOne
Here was my question:
Do you believe that Christ's words - "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" apply also to:
Rom. 12:2
2 Cor. 3:18
Colossian 3:10
Eph. 4:15
Colossians 1:6 ?
Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ wants His disciples to also HEAR what those verses say AS WELL?
Yes or No ?
I will take your extended remarks (some of which contained good things) to basically be your answer of No.
@sonship saidYou'd be right to take it that way. As I said, "The point was for people to listen to HIS voice. Not the voice of others. It is HIS voice and his voice alone that His sheep follow."
@ThinkOfOne
Here was my question:
Do you believe that Christ's words - "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" apply also to:
Rom. 12:2
2 Cor. 3:18
Colossian 3:10
Eph. 4:15
Colossians 1:6 ?
Do you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ wants His disciples to also HEAR what those verses say AS WELL?
Yes or No ?
I will t ...[text shortened]... our extended remarks (some of which contained good things) to basically be your answer of No.
Jesus's voice is Jesus' voice. Paul's voice is not Jesus' voice.
John 10
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.”
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
"He who has ears, let him hear".