15 Feb 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzYep, God had perfect knowledge of the fact that you would reject Him, but that's hardly the same as Him making you reject Him, don't you think?
No. It doesn't make sense, at least free will doesn't if that's the way you view things. God created the universe and everything in it with perfect knowledge of all the choices we'd make, in advance. He created the universe in just a way that he knew he'd have to send me to hell. This is logically inconsistent with a benevolent God.
We can't see into the future, but I guess a similar example would be: have you ever had a loved one that was addicted to something? Or depressed/suicidal etc?
You know that the choices they are making are going to hurt them, but just because you know doesn't mean you caused them to make those choices.
15 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaThe flaw in any analogy comparing God with humans is that humans are limited and God supposedly is not. This makes all those analogies worthless.
Yep, God had perfect knowledge of the fact that you would reject Him, but that's hardly the same as Him making you reject Him, don't you think?
We can't see into the future, but I guess a similar example would be: have you ever had a loved one that was addicted to something? Or depressed/suicidal etc?
You know that the choices they are making are going to hurt them, but just because you know doesn't mean you caused them to make those choices.
Believe me, if my friend was depressed and suicidal and I could magically change that, I would. Do you think it's someone's choice to be miserable? That's ridiculous.
15 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaIf God has some perfect knowledge of the way we will behave in the future "God had perfect knowledge of the fact you would we reject him", then it is saying we have no free will to act. . . In the case you stated it implies the person does not have the choice not to reject God. . .
Yep, God had perfect knowledge of the fact that you would reject Him, but that's hardly the same as Him making you reject Him, don't you think?
We can't see into the future, but I guess a similar example would be: have you ever had a loved one that was addicted to something? Or depressed/suicidal etc?
You know that the choices they are making are going to hurt them, but just because you know doesn't mean you caused them to make those choices.
15 Feb 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThat's true, it's only an analogy and a bad one at that.
The flaw in any analogy comparing God with humans is that humans are limited and God supposedly is not. This makes all those analogies worthless.
Believe me, if my friend was depressed and suicidal and I could magically change that, I would. Do you think it's someone's choice to be miserable? That's ridiculous.
No, I don't think anyone chooses to be miserable (although I know some people that are more comfortable when they are). My uncle suffers from manic depression, so I know a little bit about it.
What if your friend didn't want to use your magical powers? Would you still do it?
15 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaNo, I would not use them in that case because my knowledge is limited. However if I knew that person inside and out; knew every facet of their personality and everything else about them - I might use those powers.
That's true, it's only an analogy and a bad one at that.
No, I don't think anyone chooses to be miserable (although I know some people that are more comfortable when they are). My uncle suffers from manic depression, so I know a little bit about it.
What if your friend didn't want to use your magical powers? Would you still do it?
15 Feb 07
Originally posted by EAPOENo, it's not saying we have no free will to act at all. And it doesn't imply that he doesn't have the choice to accept God. Of course he does, and if he did the map that God was looking at would reflect that, as it would have from the start of time.
If God has some perfect knowledge of the way we will behave in the future "God had perfect knowledge of the fact you would we reject him", then it is saying we have no free will to act. . . In the case you stated it implies the person does not have the choice not to reject God. . .
The 'map' is not being formed choice by choice, well it is to us, but not to God. As He is outside time, He can already see the choices you will make in the future, which you will use your free will to make.
15 Feb 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungMight? What if you did - some friend you would be. Not even friend enough to respect their wishes.
No, I would not use them in that case because my knowledge is limited. However if I knew that person inside and out; knew every facet of their personality and everything else about them - I might use those powers.
God really does want to help us, but we have to ask Him. He won't just barge in and take over because He knows what is best for us.
16 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaActually, it is exactly the same. God created the world, and me, with full foreknowledge I'd never believe. He also had the power to do it any other way, but never did.
Yep, God had perfect knowledge of the fact that you would reject Him, but that's hardly the same as Him making you reject Him, don't you think?
We can't see into the future, but I guess a similar example would be: have you ever had a loved one that was addicted to something? Or depressed/suicidal etc?
You know that the choices they are making are going to hurt them, but just because you know doesn't mean you caused them to make those choices.
16 Feb 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzBut God wanted/wants you to decide to accept Him on your own. A bit of a hollow love if that person has no choice not to love you.
Actually, it is exactly the same. God created the world, and me, with full foreknowledge I'd never believe. He also had the power to do it any other way, but never did.
And, had the power to do what? Create the world differently just so you'd believe?
16 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaGod, by definition, has the power to do anything, and full knowledge of the consequences of his actions. [According to Christian doctorine] He created the universe, and could have created it anyway he wanted. He created it with full knowledge of everything which would transpire therein. If he didn't know what'd happen, there goes omniscience. If he did create the universe, he'd know that I was going to be born. He'd also know that I'd reject him. He'd know, in advance, that he was creating me in order to sent me to hell.
But God wanted/wants you to decide to accept Him on your own. A bit of a hollow love if that person has no choice not to love you.
And, had the power to do what? Create the world differently just so you'd believe?
Of course, if God is truly omniscient, he'd know what he was going to do, and would have no free will himself, destroying his supposed omnipotence, and rendering himself impotent.
16 Feb 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzI guess you could say He created you knowing that you would reject Him but He is not the one that made you reject Him. You did that on your own.
God, by definition, has the power to do anything, and full knowledge of the consequences of his actions. [According to Christian doctorine] He created the universe, and could have created it anyway he wanted. He created it with full knowledge of everything which would transpire therein. If he didn't know what'd happen, there goes omniscience. ...[text shortened]... o free will himself, destroying his supposed omnipotence, and rendering himself impotent.
That second paragraph makes no sense. Just because God knows what He or I or you or anybody is going to do doesn't mean that He is controlling that choice. Ok, so He does know about everything that He will ever do, but that's only because He has already made all those choices (from His perspective) in His omnipotence.
If that makes any sense.....
16 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaHere is a better analogy than your drug addicted friend: You make a tower out of blocks. You design it is such a way that it will fall over before you finish it. You know this in advance as it is your design. You clearly did not knock it down but surely you are still responsible for it falling over. You are claiming that you are not responsible.
I guess you could say He created you knowing that you would reject Him but He is not the one that made you reject Him. You did that on your own.
That second paragraph makes no sense. Just because God knows what He or I or you or anybody is going to do doesn't mean that He is controlling that choice. Ok, so He does know about everything that He will ever do, ...[text shortened]... e all those choices (from His perspective) in His omnipotence.
If that makes any sense.....
If God exists then he made me and my environment in such a way that I would not believe in the existence of God. He did not give me a choice and leave me to make the wrong choice, he simply designed me wrong and for that he must take full responsibility.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that free will is the equivalent of the ability to do anything. There are limitations to my choices. I cannot choose to go to Jupiter. I cannot choose to believe in God.
16 Feb 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadThere's a bit of a difference between choosing to go to Jupiter and choosing to believe in God.
Here is a better analogy than your drug addicted friend: You make a tower out of blocks. You design it is such a way that it will fall over before you finish it. You know this in advance as it is your design. You clearly did not knock it down but surely you are still responsible for it falling over. You are claiming that you are [b]not responsible.
I ...[text shortened]... limitations to my choices. I cannot choose to go to Jupiter. I cannot choose to believe in God.[/b]
Just because I decided to accept God doesn't mean that He made me do it, I could just as easily renounce my belief tomorrow.
No, it's not quite like that tower, because the tower is an inanimate object, and can not choose to fall over of it's own accord. So God creates us with the purpose of living in His perfect world in relationship with Him and we decide that we don't like that and we want to knock the tower over. How is that His fault? He gave us every opportunity to follow His guidelines (or the engineering laws that keep a tower up) but we chose to ignore them. Not at all part of His plan or design.
16 Feb 07
Originally posted by CritaYou did not 'just decide' to believe in God. Deciding to accept him and deciding to believe in him are two different things.
Just because I decided to accept God doesn't mean that He made me do it, I could just as easily renounce my belief tomorrow.
Renouncing your belief is not the same as not believing. If you think that God does not exist then why don't you renounce him now?
No, it's not quite like that tower, because the tower is an inanimate object, and can not choose to fall over of it's own accord. So God creates us with the purpose of living in His perfect world in relationship with Him and we decide that we don't like that and we want to knock the tower over. How is that His fault? He gave us every opportunity to follow His guidelines (or the engineering laws that keep a tower up) but we chose to ignore them. Not at all part of His plan or design.
My claim is that I and my environment are designed in such a way that I have no choice but to not believe in God. I am claiming that he omitted those engineering laws. I am also claiming that if he had foreknowledge then all results are necessarily part of the plan or design. A good architects towers do not fall down.