18 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydIf he already knows the answers, why ask them?
After reading all posts, I don't think you've gotten one yet. But be of good cheer--there is always hope. 😉
Furthermore, how are his questions material to the topic at hand?
He's just playing games as usual.
19 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBy showing that they are not in fact following Pauline doctrine, it reveals that they are not very good at following written doctrine in general, or they cannot see the contradictions therein.
Unfortunately much of "Christianity" has deviated far from the path outlined by Jesus. That deviation seems to have started with Paul. The point is that many of the "Christian" churches do not follow the teachings of Jesus. How well they manage to follow Paul is unimportant.
20 May 08
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Originally posted by SwissGambitYeah, it's pretty sorry, isn't it?
By showing that they are not in fact following Pauline doctrine, it reveals that they are not very good at following written doctrine in general, or they cannot see the contradictions therein.
However, I don't think they make a conscious attempt to follow Paul, as much as embracing the idea of "salvation by grace" seems to allow them to continue to sin without feeling badly about themselves or having to be concerned with "getting to heaven". They seem to see it as an eternal "get out of jail free" card and are extremely protective of it. It's remarkable how the mind can keep one from seeing what's there. Can you spell denial?
That said, embracing atheism can accomplish much the same thing for others. Interesting don't you think?
20 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo you really think that we require the promise of heaven and/or salvation, or threat of hell, just to make us act rightly? If not, why scorn atheism for liberating people from these phony motivations?
Yeah, it's pretty sorry, isn't it?
However, I don't think they make a conscious attempt to follow Paul, as much as embracing the idea of "salvation by grace" seems to allow them to continue to sin without feeling badly about themselves or having to be concerned with "getting to heaven". They seem to see it as an eternal "get out of jail free" card and ...[text shortened]... atheism can accomplish much the same thing for others. Interesting don't you think?
20 May 08
Originally posted by SwissGambitI never said or even implied that anything should be required for one to "act rightly" other than for the sake of doing so.
Do you really think that we require the promise of heaven and/or salvation, or threat of hell, just to make us act rightly? If not, why scorn atheism for liberating people from these phony motivations?
However, it still stands that many athiests share the same motivations as "Christians" who believe in "salvation by grace". No reason for you to take offense. It is what it is. The sad truth is that the vast majority of people do not "act rightly". It seems to make little difference whether they are athiest or "Christian". That's a really pathetic track record for those who call Jesus "Lord" if you think about it.
21 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI guess I'm still confused about your earlier post.
I never said or even implied that anything should be required for one to "act rightly" other than for the sake of doing so.
However, it still stands that many athiests share the same motivations as "Christians" who believe in "salvation by grace". No reason for you to take offense. It is what it is. The sad truth is that the vast majority of people do ...[text shortened]... really pathetic track record for those who call Jesus "Lord" if you think about it.
Why should an atheist care about trying to get into heaven? Or having an 'eternal get-out-of-jail free card'?
21 May 08
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Originally posted by SwissGambitAn atheist isn't concerned about 'getting into heaven' because there's nothing to worry about. Similarly a "Salvation by Grace Christian" isn't concerned about about 'getting into heaven' because there's nothing to worry about. Clearer?
I guess I'm still confused about your earlier post.
Why should an atheist care about trying to get into heaven? Or having an 'eternal get-out-of-jail free card'?
22 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWe're almost there.
An atheist isn't concerned about 'getting into heaven' because there's nothing to worry about. Similarly a "Salvation by Grace Christian" isn't concerned about about 'getting into heaven' because there's nothing to worry about. Clearer?
I would say it's good to quit worrying about getting into heaven, and bad to sin [or better, do morally wrong things] without feeling bad about it. Since you put 'not worrying about getting into heaven' and 'sinning without feeling bad' into the same sentence, it sounds like you view both of them as bad things. True?
22 May 08
Originally posted by SwissGambitThe point I was trying to make was about how people create rationalizations that remove obstacles from sinning (or as you put it - doing morally wrong things) and how "Salvation by Grace Christianity" puts itself on equal footing with atheism in this way.
We're almost there.
I would say it's good to quit worrying about getting into heaven, and bad to sin [or better, do morally wrong things] without feeling bad about it. Since you put 'not worrying about getting into heaven' and 'sinning without feeling bad' into the same sentence, it sounds like you view both of them as bad things. True?
I'd say that acting righteously for selfish reasons is basically doing the right things for the wrong reasons. I'd put "getting into heaven" in this category.
This would be so much easier in a face-to-face conversation 🙂
23 May 08
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHow does atheism create rationalizations that remove obstacles from sinning? I don't see how you can equate it with "Salvation by Grace Christianity".
The point I was trying to make was about how people create rationalizations that remove obstacles from sinning (or as you put it - doing morally wrong things) and how "Salvation by Grace Christianity" puts itself on equal footing with atheism in this way.
I'd say that acting righteously for selfish reasons is basically doing the right things for the wrong reasons. I'd put "getting into heaven" in this category.
So the "Salvation through Righteousness" that you praised earlier in the thread is either:
1. doing the right things for the wrong reasons.
2. only truly praiseworthy when salvation is not in fact the motivation for the righteous person. But then why did Christ (and others since him) spend so much time talking about salvation? Surely that can only serve to tempt and mislead?
23 May 08
Originally posted by jaywillYou wouldn't (and can't) know because your secret decoder ring is silently removing all the contradictions.
What is this nonsense about Jesus verses Paul?
What did Jesus teach that Paul did not faithfully follow to teach in like manner ?
Of course what we should really be discussing is the difference in theology between Paul and the Gospel writers. I wonder which actually knew more about the actual historical Jesus.
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23 May 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadI am interested. What are the different theologies between Jesus and Paul?
You wouldn't (and can't) know because your secret decoder ring is silently removing all the contradictions.
Of course what we should really be discussing is the difference in theology between Paul and the Gospel writers. I wonder which actually knew more about the actual historical Jesus.
23 May 08
Originally posted by Conrau KI actually said quite clearly that the differences were between Paul and the 'reported Jesus' as reported by the gospel writers.
I am interested. What are the different theologies between Jesus and Paul?
I am no expert on the Bible so will not attempt to go into detail or even claim that I am right, but I have heard that:
1. Paul focused more on 'salvation by faith' and Jesus more on 'salvation by works'.
2. Paul made Christianity into a religion for all, whereas Jesus focused mainly on Jews.
3. Paul saw Jesus as God whereas I don't think Jesus really made that claim.
My comment to jaywill was not so much to claim that there are difference but to point out that if there were he would either not see it or he would explain them away.
23 May 08
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twhitehead writes:
1. Paul focused more on 'salvation by faith' and Jesus more on 'salvation by works'.
2. Paul made Christianity into a religion for all, whereas Jesus focused mainly on Jews.
3. Paul saw Jesus as God whereas I don't think Jesus really made that claim.
Which one of these bogus ignorant statements would you like me to totally debunk first.
#1 or #2 or #3 ? I think I'll do one post per point today.
Anyone?