Spirituality
02 Aug 05
15 Aug 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageBosse, you really want me going off on another tangent, don't you?
You missed out the Gospel of Thomas, which is extra-biblical because it was excluded from the canon in 325 AD. It's a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus, oldest known manuscript 2nd century AD.
You might also be interested in the method used regarding the authorship of the Gospel of Mark:
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Mark.htm. ...[text shortened]... ty; after Constantine, Julian unsuccessfully attempted to revert to the old pagan ways.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You missed out the Gospel of Thomas
Shouldn't the complete oddness of Thomas be a tip off to most xtians? Nothing of the narrative in the canons, merely a collection of aphorisms that could be attributed to anyone...Muffy, if you wish, or even the Smoking Head of Bob. If Jesusbots want to include Thomas in their defense of an HJC, they'll have to take it, warts and all...and it still wouldn't make a convincing argument.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You should also address Constantine's role in promoting Christianity.
Constantine was a pragmatist and an opportunist. So were the early xtian leaders. What else is there to say?
I've read your earlier link, http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/christ_constantine_sol_invictus.html. This is very much part of the MJC argument. Have you delved much into Astrotheology?
15 Aug 05
1 edit
On to Sanhedrin 43a
On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu (of Nazareth) and the herald went before him for forty days saying (Yeshu of Nazareth) is going forth to be stoned in that he hath practiced sorcery and beguiled and led astray Israel. Let everyone knowing aught in his defence come and plead for him. But they found naught in his defence and hanged him on the eve of Passover. (Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a).
There is no clear indication of a reference to Jesus of the NT, as there is no dating of this event. The document from which this passage is sourced dates from the 5th century A.D., and elsewhere this person is called 'Jeshu ben Pandera' (Son of Pantera, House of Pantera). There were five (5) disciples listed: Mattai, Naqai, Netser, Buni and Todah. They do not appear to be any of the disciples named in the NT, leading one to the conclusion that 'Jeshu ben Pandera' is not Jesus of Nazareth.
15 Aug 05
Originally posted by David CActually, "Mattai" is just Matthew.
On to Sanhedrin 43a
There were five (5) disciples listed: Mattai, Naqai, Netser, Buni and Todah. They do not appear to be any of the disciples named in the NT, leading one to the conclusion that 'Jeshu ben Pandera' is not Jesus of Nazareth.
16 Aug 05
Pliny the Younger, in a letter to Emperor Trajan written circa 112 C.E. specifically mentions and describes the beliefs and practices of Christians, including that some of these Christians were "singing a hymn to Christ as to a god."
I've never understood the apologists' use of this information. All it confirms is that by Pliny's time, there were individuals who believed the myth...this does not, in any way, confirm an HJC.
18 Aug 05
I think you've established there's no incontrovertible evidence for the HJC, David.
The only remaining question is on whom the burden of proof rests--those who say "prove he lived" or those who counter "prove he didn't".
Call in a professional historian, I can't give you the answer to that.
18 Aug 05
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI don't think people really dispute whether Jesus the man existed.
I think you've established there's no incontrovertible evidence for the HJC, David.
The only remaining question is on whom the burden of proof rests--those who say "prove he lived" or those who counter "prove he didn't".
Call in a professional historian, I can't give you the answer to that.
I think the main debate is his claim to be the messiah. Thats the
crux of it. Nobody disputes the idea Plato, Plutarch, Erasthenes,
and the rest existed. What is differant is they don't claim to be the
son of god.
18 Aug 05
Originally posted by sonhouseThis thread was for debating if the man existed, so there is some dispute.
I don't think people really dispute whether Jesus the man existed.
I think the main debate is his claim to be the messiah. Thats the
crux of it. Nobody disputes the idea Plato, Plutarch, Erasthenes,
and the rest existed. What is differant is they don't claim to be the
son of god.