KNOWING that God exists

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
In all other areas of your life, would you not deem it logical to have proof before believing something to be true?

Why does this logical thinking not also apply to God? And doesn't this lack of proof render belief in God 'illogical?'

Why do all (okay, that's unfair - perhaps most) atheists insist that believing in God is like buying car insurance or shopping for the best sunglasses?

Originally posted by @suzianne
How would I know what apathist knows or doesn't know?

And why would you ask such an inane question?

It's not an inane question. It is a pertinent question. It's about how people use the word "know". It's about the way you use the word "know" to refer to something you cannot prove to other people. It's about how some atheists use the word "know" [as in they "know" there is no god] to refer to something they cannot prove to other people's satisfaction. It's not an inane question at all.

Originally posted by @suzianne
By the way, for all the value you put on yourself for being an excellent communicator, this one sentence from you is so full of namby-pamby-ism that it's just hard to understand such a stultifyingly roundabout question and so seems poorly conceived at best. My advice would be to just spit it out instead of being afraid of soundling like an a-hole.

You'd be better off just addressing the question - which is clear, succinct and on target - rather than typing this kind of stuff which serves only to avoid what you are being asked.

Originally posted by @suzianne
How would I know what apathist knows or doesn't know?

And why would you ask such an inane question? Oh, yeah, more attacks on Christians always makes for a better party, right? By the way, for all the value you put on yourself for being an excellent communicator, this one sentence from you is so full of namby-pamby-ism that it's just hard to understan ...[text shortened]... st. My advice would be to just spit it out instead of being afraid of soundling like an a-hole.

You are on a higher spiritual plane then those dudes who seem to be unable to take a stance and stick with it. Instead, they just repost the same stupid questions over and over, you show me your's and I'll show you mine. Maybe. Real courage, eh. Me I feel there is no bible god, they are all man made and agnostic on whether there are real gods or a god out there, it is a huge universe and we are in kindergarted scientifically and may never know those kind of answers scientifically. But I think we will be able to answer ONE of the big questions within a couple hundred years mabye less, how life originated here on Earth. Or at least a way that shows how life COULD start. If we show X. Y, and Z leads to life doesn't neccissarily prove that is how life actually started here, just that WE can make life start.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
Me I feel there is no bible god, they are all man made and agnostic on whether there are real gods or a god out there, it is a huge universe and we are in kindergarted scientifically and may never know those kind of answers scientifically.

You "feel" it or do you claim to "know" it?

Originally posted by @fmf
You "feel" it or do you claim to "know" it?

I feel it based on bible tales and events of the last thousand years which clearly shows the tales in the bible such as 'god' making the pharoahs heart harden and such, a god intervening directly in human existance and in favor of one group over another but fast forward a few thousand years and the non-interferance in such events as the presumably ten's of thousands of deaths in the crusades, the hundred million deaths of the 20th century where literally tens of millions of those are Jewish or Christian or Muslim, the genocides and such, with no such intervening of some god or other makes me feel the stories of the bible are just man made and in fact we make our own morality, much as theists would scream no, which is why I say religions puts down the mind of man saying a god is infinitely more intelligent and such than any man in spite of the fact of what in fact looks more like a quarantined humanity than anything else, making the assumption there is some god or other.

Also, so many religions in the world and many of them at each other's throats over thousands of years, they cannot ALL be right but they sure as hell can be all wrong.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
I feel it based on bible tales and events of the last thousand years which clearly shows the tales in the bible such as 'god' making the pharoahs heart harden and such, a god intervening directly in human existance and in favor of one group over another but fast forward a few thousand years and the non-interferance in such events as the presumably ten's of ...[text shortened]... hroats over thousands of years, they cannot ALL be right but they sure as hell can be all wrong.

Yes, I know you are an atheist. You've said so thousands of times. I am not asking you about that. I am asking you about the word "know". I am interested in the words "knowing" and "know" and how they apply to the perceptions or beliefs of a theist (like Suzianne) or an atheist (like apathist). It's the thread topic, after all.

Originally posted by @suzianne
How would I know what apathist knows or doesn't know?

Surely his use of the word "know" is no different ~ no more or less legitimate ~ than your use of the word "know"?

Originally posted by @fmf
Yes, I know you are an atheist. You've said so thousands of times. I am not asking you about that. I am asking you about the word "know". I am interested in the words "knowing" and "know" and how they apply to the perceptions or beliefs of a theist (like Suzianne) or an atheist (like apathist). It's the thread topic, after all.

You can 'know' things like you are certain to be killed if you hit a cliff at 400 MPH.
I said I 'feel' the way religion is, I can't possibly 'know' it. To know with certainty would take a deity not ANY human. You KNOW you will be burned to death if you walk into a forest fire but you cannot know with certainty a god exists even if you think it has communicated with you.

My gut tells me humans are a bit too low on the totem pole of advancement to be worth the attention of a deity which is why I think no such communications has ever taken place.

People get close to dying say by a car just missing them barreling down the highway at 200 Kph, and they say 'god saved me' like that person was worth saving while a hundred million Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu and so forth died horrible deaths at the hands of despots. Bit of a dichotomy there don't you think?

I am a bible god atheist not a hard core atheist, it is a noticably large universe and we have no way of knowing if there is some kind of god, some being with powers we would consider god like, it seems highly unlikely but you can't be certain such exists.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
I said I 'feel' the way religion is, I can't possibly 'know' it. To know with certainty would take a deity not ANY human. You KNOW you will be burned to death if you walk into a forest fire but you cannot know with certainty a god exists even if you think it has communicated with you.

Earlier (on this page) you seemed to be suggesting that Suzianne was "on a higher spiritual plane" because ~ er... why? ~ was it because she says she "knows" her god figure exists? And then you seemed to suggest that those who do not claim to "know" that god exists or do not claim to "know" that god doesn't exist, lack "courage". What was that all about? It doesn't seem to fit what you are saying now.

Originally posted by @fmf
Earlier (on this page) you seemed to be suggesting that Suzianne was "on a higher spiritual plane" because ~ er... why? ~ was it because she says she "knows" her god figure exists? And then you seemed to suggest that those who do not claim to "know" that god exists or do not claim to "know" that god doesn't exist, lack "courage". What was that all about? It doesn't seem to fit what you are saying now.

I said that because of her life not some 'knowing' of a god.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
...Instead, they just repost the same stupid questions over and over, you show me your's and I'll show you mine.... Real courage, eh.

>>...Me I feel there is no bible god...<<

I admire your "courage" in repeating the same stupid statement over and over again.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
I said that because of her life not some 'knowing' of a god.

You said she was "on a higher spiritual plane than those dudes who seem to be unable to take a stance and stick with it." I find this surprising at best, and, more candidly, I find it risible. It makes you sound like a religionist. Surely curiosity, questioning, doubt, open mindedness, willingness to change one's mind etc. are in fact signs that one is "on a higher spiritual plane" and certainly much more so than those stubborn ideologues who "take a stance and stick with it", as you put it? I am surprised by what you said; I wonder if it was just an angry blurt.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
My gut tells me humans are a bit too low on the totem pole of advancement to be worth the attention of a deity which is why I think no such communications has ever taken place.

My "gut" tells me you are mistaken.

So much for intestinal perceptions.

Originally posted by @sonhouse
You are on a higher spiritual plane then those dudes who seem to be unable to take a stance and stick with it. Instead, they just repost the same stupid questions over and over, you show me your's and I'll show you mine. Maybe. Real courage, eh. Me I feel there is no bible god, they are all man made and agnostic on whether there are real gods or a god out ...[text shortened]... n't neccissarily prove that is how life actually started here, just that WE can make life start.

Maybe, if we HAD a "couple hundred years" before Christ comes back and sets things right.

We are back to the way it was "in the days of Noah". We're pushing ourselves to the brink. We're now, again, so far from God that another correction is coming, this one final. There's precious little hope in the world today and people fear for their younglings. Something has to be done and it won't be pretty. But we're forcing it on ourselves because we've fallen away from God.