List of 'constructive' Christians - debunked.

Originally posted by howardgee
3. Rene Descartes

Writing at the height of the Inquisitions, it is generally agreed that his feeble proofs of God were simply a means to keep the torturers at bay.
Indeed;
"In 1629 he began work on The World. In 1633, Galileo was condemned, and Descartes abandoned plans to publish The World". Hints at his fear of Religious backlash against his non- ...[text shortened]... ipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Descartes

Yet another fine example of a Xtain. Good effort Halitosis!!!

Writing at the height of the Inquisitions, it is generally agreed that his feeble proofs of God were simply a means to keep the torturers at bay.

I have always been of the opinion that the two questions respecting God and the Soul were the chief of those that ought to be determined by help of Philosophy rather than of Theology; for although to us, the faithful, it be sufficient to hold as matters of faith, that the human soul does not perish with the body, and that God exists, it yet assuredly seems impossible ever to persuade infidels of the reality of any religion, or almost even any moral virtue, unless, first of all, those two things be proved to them by natural reason. And since in this life there are frequently greater rewards held out to vice than to virtue, few would prefer the right to the useful, if they were restrained neither by the fear of God nor the expectation of another life; and although it is quite true that the existence of God is to be believed since it is taught in the sacred Scriptures, and that, on the other hand, the sacred Scriptures are to be believed because they come from God (for since faith is a gift of God, the same Being who bestows grace to enable us to believe other things, can likewise impart of it to enable us to believe his own existence), nevertheless, this cannot be submitted to infidels, who would consider that the reasoning proceeded in a circle. And, indeed, I have observed that you, with all the other theologians, not only affirmed the sufficiency of natural reason for the proof of the existence of God, but also, that it may be inferred from sacred Scripture, that the knowledge of God is much clearer than of many created things, and that it is really so easy of acquisition as to leave those who do not possess it blameworthy. This is manifest from these words of the Book of Wisdom, chap. xiii., where it is said, Howbeit they are not to be excused; for if their understanding was so great that they could discern the world and the creatures, why did they not rather find out the Lord thereof? And in Romans, chap. i., it is said that they are without excuse; and again, in the same place, by these words,--That which may be known of God is manifest in them-- we seem to be admonished that all which can be known of God may be made manifest by reasons obtained from no other source than the inspection of our own minds. I have, therefore, thought that it would not be unbecoming in me to inquire how and by what way, without going out of ourselves, God may be more easily and certainly known than the things of the world.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
It certainly can be, but the opposite is also true. In both cases I think that the character of the person concerned is what is most important. Someone with a mediocre character is likely to be unimpressive whether atheist or religious in persuasion.

As Planck pointed out, religion & science are different domains; had Planck been an atheist his sci ...[text shortened]... ssarily inform his work (how to see Christ in an equation), but his work was not his whole life.

Originally posted by lucifershammer

Writing at the height of the Inquisitions, it is generally agreed that his feeble proofs of God were simply a means to keep the torturers at bay.

Really? Any evidence?

For the third time, actually read the works of the person before claiming he/she was not Christian:

I have always been of the opinion that the two questio ...[text shortened]... he world.

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl302/texts/descartes/meditations/LoD.html

LH quoted Descartes thus:

"although it is quite true that the existence of God is to be believed since it is taught in the sacred Scriptures, and that, on the other hand, the sacred Scriptures are to be believed because they come from God (for since faith is a gift of God, the same Being who bestows grace to enable us to believe other things, can likewise impart of it to enable us to believe his own existence), nevertheless, this cannot be submitted to infidels, who would consider that the reasoning proceeded in a circle."

This is hilarious!
Not only does Descartes offer a completely question-begging proof of God, but he also points out it's circular nature!
The man certainly had a sense of humour.
Thanks for proving my point that he was writing to appease the church and avoid the Inquisition, LH.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It's hard to really know how deep or real the faith of medieval writers were since anyone who argued that the Christian God didn't exist (or even disagreed with accepted religious dogma) risked death, torture and imprisonment in Middle Age Europe. I really don't see the point of Howardgee's arguments or Luciferhammer's "refutations". Even if what ...[text shortened]... the time, the opinions of men on such matters can change over their lives. So what's the point?

Originally posted by howardgee
I think the point is that all these 4 men were brought up in a time when religious belief was fervent, and yet went on to contradict the church's tenets despite great risk to themselves.

They lived in an era when the general opinion was that the Earth was the centre of the universe, before the theory of Evolution was postulated and before a single foss ...[text shortened]... KEllyJay, RBHIll, etc, etc, ad nauseum - What is the excuse for your ignorant religious belief?

Originally posted by howardgee
LH quoted Descartes thus:

"although it is quite true that the existence of God is to be believed since it is taught in the sacred Scriptures, and that, on the other hand, the sacred Scriptures are to be believed because they come from God (for since faith is a gift of God, the same Being who bestows grace to enable us to believe other things, can likew ...[text shortened]... ks for proving my point that he was writing to appease the church and avoid the Inquisition, LH.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It's hard to really know how deep or real the faith of medieval writers were since anyone who argued that the Christian God didn't exist (or even disagreed with accepted religious dogma) risked death, torture and imprisonment in Middle Age Europe. I really don't see the point of Howardgee's arguments or Luciferhammer's "refutations". Even if what ...[text shortened]... the time, the opinions of men on such matters can change over their lives. So what's the point?

Originally posted by howardgee
I think the point is that all these 4 men were brought up in a time when religious belief was fervent, and yet went on to contradict the church's tenets despite great risk to themselves.

They lived in an era when the general opinion was that the Earth was the centre of the universe, before the theory of Evolution was postulated and before a single foss ...[text shortened]... KEllyJay, RBHIll, etc, etc, ad nauseum - What is the excuse for your ignorant religious belief?

Originally posted by howardgee
Recently on another thread, Halitosis cut and pasted a list of influential Xstians from another web site.

Here is his borrowed list (from the site http://www.christianitytoday.com/history/features/131christians.html)

Rembrandt Harmensz Van Rijn
Johann Sebastian Bach
George Frideric Handel
John Bunyan
Harriet Beecher Stowe
Fyodor Dostoyevsky ...[text shortened]... representation by the aforemention Xstian site and includes people who were clearly not Xstians.

Originally posted by aardvarkhome
Everyone always claims the nice guys for their team. Think how lonely Torquemada, the Borgias. Vlad the Impaler, Adolph Hitler, Adolph Eichmann , H. H. Holmes ,Gilles de Rais, Basil the Bulgar Slayer and Heinrich Himmler must feel rejected by the christian world that spawned them.