30 Aug 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSorry, I did miss that. I concentrated on what you said and not on what you quoted.
It may not have been readily apparent, but my question was aimed at the quoted text in bold.
As an answer to your questions, from what I can tell, after boiling things down, the vast majority follow a given religion as a way to cope with fear/anxiety. Their religious beliefs are foundational to a less threatening "world view". They "avoid the difficult questions" in an effort to keep their world view intact. Take a look at a list of "coping strategies" and/or "ego defense mechanisms" and see how many apply as you try to pin them down. It often seems like they are "unable to engage in a rational discussion", simply because they are literally "unable to engage in a rational discussion."
A very good answer.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by Andrew HamiltonI am, I'll lay money that if the truth were told we do more damage to our kids
“…how about when we shoot each other do we
blame God for all of the other things we do to one another too?...”
no; and that is irrelevant;
667joe was obviously NOT referring to that child-suffering cause by us but rather that child suffering cause by things that we generally have little control over or at least not necessarily so such as rabies, ...[text shortened]... n he is all powerful and so it must be in his power to stop such suffering of indecent children?
than all the storms and such put together, and we do with choices we make so
it is with intent.
Kelly
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by rwingettNo I don't think the great flood tops them all, that is yet to come.
We can always blame god for the Great Flood. That kind of tops 'em all, don't it?
I'm quite sure when everyone gets done judging what is right and wrong, it will
all work itself out justly.
Kelly
30 Aug 10
2 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadPeople are the cause! We do more damage to each other than natural disasters.
Why is it that every time someone asks about suffering, the theists immediately point at other people as the cause, and avoid the difficult questions?
Why is it that you cant start by addressing the difficult questions? Why does it always take pages and pages before that happens?
In case you don't know what the difficult questions are (despite having he ...[text shortened]... atural disaster?
2. What about preventing man made suffering (such as preventing child abuse).
I'd be willing to bet that many of our choices have brought upon ourselves a lot
of other suffering too, like STD and other deseases because of our choices.
We ran off from God early on and we are lying in the bed we made for ourselves,
and if you look at our lot in life as it really is and compare it to what it could be,
almost all the bad is by our own hands when it does not have to be.
Kelly
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by KellyJayIn this vein, looking back over the last 50 years, there seems to be a general worsening of the human condition, even in the USA (or maybe especially so), marked by a degeneration of the nuclear family, what some would call a loosening of morals, a degradation of quality in the media, a general distrust of governments and a lowered opinion of our fellow man. Would you blame this on a general apostasy, or a falling away from the church, as witnessed by diminished congregations at churches of all denominations, and/or simply a sign of "end times" with the resultant resurgence of the influence of sin in the world?
People are the cause! We do more damage to each other than natural disasters.
I'd be willing to bet that many of our choices have brought upon ourselves a lot
of other suffering too, like STD and other deseases because of our choices.
We ran off from God early on and we are lying in the bed we made for ourselves,
and if you look at our lot in life as ...[text shortened]... o what it could be,
almost all the bad is by our own hands when it does not have to be.
Kelly
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by KellyJayThough I dispute that claim, even if allowed, it does not answer the question. Even if we do 99.999999% of the damage, it does not mean natural disasters do no damage.
People are the cause! We do more damage to each other than natural disasters.
Why are you so insistent on ignoring the damage that natural disasters cause?
I'd be willing to bet that many of our choices have brought upon ourselves a lot
of other suffering too, like STD and other deseases because of our choices.
I am sure you can find a way to blame people for just about anything. Even the deaths due to a volcano erupting could potentially be blamed on the people who chose to live near it. But I don't buy that 'people are to blame for it all' argument. Even with STDs, nobody actually intends to get an STD. Would you say the same about malaria? Is malaria our fault too because we didn't use treated mosquito nets? Should we all have left Africa, and its our fault for not doing so?
We ran off from God early on and we are lying in the bed we made for ourselves,
Who is 'we'? I refuse to take responsibility for something you claim my ancestors did. I deny that I made any such bed.
and if you look at our lot in life as it really is and compare it to what it could be,
almost all the bad is by our own hands when it does not have to be.
Kelly
So you continue to maintain your blinkered vision and refuse point blank to address the hard questions. Does ThinkOfOne have you correctly pegged?
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by SuzianneI would blame it on illusion. You are simply incorrect about the "general worsening of the human condition". Most people are better off.
In this vein, looking back over the last 50 years, there seems to be a general worsening of the human condition, even in the USA (or maybe especially so), marked by a degeneration of the nuclear family, what some would call a loosening of morals, a degradation of quality in the media, a general distrust of governments and a lowered opinion of our fellow man.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadBy "most people", I'm guessing you mean yourself. I take it this means no one in your family has suffered the loss of their job, or home, or spouse, no one in your family has been incarcerated, you trust your government and you love your neighbor. Really? Then congratulations. This is hardly the rule across humanity.
I would blame it on illusion. You are simply incorrect about the "general worsening of the human condition". Most people are better off.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by divegeester“…In the meantime try to realise that it's MANKIND that creates the suffering in the world….”
Believers will take that up with their god [if] they meet him.
In the meantime try to realise that it's MANKIND that creates the suffering in the world. Often by non-spiritual, non-theist bad parents, bad politicians, dictators, corporate leaders and criminals.
Not all of it. What about that caused by natural disasters? Is that always caused by MANKIND?
That’s what 667joe is obviously referring to here.
“…often by non-spiritual, non-theist bad parents…”
What about the “good” non-theist parents?
30 Aug 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999“…Exactly. God does directly or allows these things to happen….”
Exactly. God does directly or allows these things to happen.
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
I really appreciate your logical consistency here.
You appear to acknowledge the logic that you cannot have a “God” that is BOTH always kind AND has the power to prevent unkind things to happen to people but doesn't.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by KellyJay“…maybe…”
Maybe, do you thank God for all the good things in your life, or do you just
credit Him for all the bad?
Kelly
So “God” CAN be blamed for it and “He” CAN therefore be blamed for the suffering of innocent little children when their suffering was NOT caused by mankind.
“…do you thank God for all the good things in your life, or do you just
credit Him for all the bad?...”
if this all-powerful all-knowing “God” exists and if He can control everything then logic dictates that He can be credited for BOTH all the good things that happen in our lives AND all the bad things that happen in our lives.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by KellyJay“…if the truth were told we do more damage to our kids
I am, I'll lay money that if the truth were told we do more damage to our kids
than all the storms and such put together, and we do with choices we make so
it is with intent.
Kelly
than all the storms and such put together,…”
-irrelevant; how “much” or what proportion of the suffering is caused by us is totally irrelevant to why a kind “God” would allow that suffering of indecent children that is NOT caused by us. And that is logically true even if 99.9% of suffering is caused by us because that does not change the fact that the remaining 0.1% still exists.
You are deliberately avoiding that question because you have no answer.
30 Aug 10
Originally posted by SuzianneNo, I do not mean myself. I mean most people.
By "most people", I'm guessing you mean yourself. I take it this means no one in your family has suffered the loss of their job, or home, or spouse, no one in your family has been incarcerated, you trust your government and you love your neighbor. Really? Then congratulations. This is hardly the rule across humanity.
50 years ago, I didn't entirely trust my government or love my neighbor, nor do I now. I am not 50 years old, but from what my parents tell me, and history books, more people now have good jobs than 50 years ago.
So, what is the 'rule across humanity' according to you? What percentage of people have lost their jobs, or been incarcerated compared to 50 years ago? What percentage of people do not trust thier government or love their neighbor compared to 50 years ago?