Mapping "Enlightenment"

Originally posted by Taoman
Mistake not the reason for my sigh, friend
It was the truth of what you said, that made me so.

My "unable to stand still" is often my playing, and in my playing is my call to the curious at heart, my kin. Others will dismiss it. (Mind you, I do not ever want to be without questions, discovery - nor would "God" want it either, methinks)

Then there is a ...[text shortened]... - or our maps.

Oh. here comes somebody so sad, walking along the beach....just now.

I know you transmit it any way you can out of love and compassion; an Old Cow and a broken down Insect having good time doing no thing!
Namaste
😵

Originally posted by Dasa
There is the false ego and that is what you talk of.............but there is true ego and of this you are uninformed.

But praise the Gods , they tell much of this true ego but who has the ears to hear or the sense to want to hear?

Oh, I am not uninformed,
for I have danced with Shiva
but even he disappeared before my very eyes,
and then he looked like she, Shakti,
and then I heard a thousand names of Allah,
and they echoed against the thousand aspects
of a thousand Hindu dieties.
They were all there, everyone
and in the Great Gestalt of Waying,
behind them shining
was the Clear Light of spacious Awareness,
so empty, so potent.

Namaste

Originally posted by Taoman
This is a part of an interview by Andrew Cohen of Kaisa Puhakka, transpersonal psychologist I found in my travels. I post to share the well expressed thoughts of Puhakka on the maps allegory.
Note that "... from your perpective of enlightened mind" refers to a
theoretical context (unnecessary, imo) raised by Cohen, in putting the question. The full contex ...[text shortened]... d. The road itself comes into being in the walking."

[edits typographical]

"There is no road that is ready-made, let alone a map that will describe the road. The road itself comes into being in the walking."

Please Taoman! That statement in and of itself is contradictory based on the context it is delivered in. In one breath the man says there is a path, made as one treads along, and in the next breath he states categorically that there is no ready made path. He is saying he knows an absolute truth and at the same time denies its existence.

Who does he think he is telling us what life is all about? It's his opinion and that's all it is. The difference between this man's ego driven, self styled belief, and the beliefs held by Christians, is that Kaisa Puhakka's belief is entirely dependant on self and the Christian's is dependant on God.

It's too much for the ego to handle the concept of a Creator/ God. It's too "self" diminishing for the ego. The world is full of people claiming to know the truth. The real truth eradicates the "self" and "ego" in one sweep.

Jesus Christ. He will do you in all at once. Completely. Jesus is "The Way", and not because I say so, but because He said so. Jesus Christ is the final authority.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"There is no road that is ready-made, let alone a map that will describe the road. The road itself comes into being in the walking."

Please Taoman! That statement in and of itself is contradictory based on the context it is delivered in. In one breath the man says there is a path, made as one treads along, and in the next breath he states categoric ...[text shortened]... because I say so, but because He said so. Jesus Christ is the final authority.[/b]

"There is no road...THAT IS READY MADE."
"The road itself...COMES INTO BEING in the walking."



Ms Puhakka seeks to describe her experience of walking the road she describes. She does not say that for her there is no road at any point.

Strange that I see she talks of NO absolute truth and the need to get beyond a rigid self concept, while you see her saying the opposite.

Your beliefs about the final absolute authority of "the Bible", a human compiled collection of ancient near Eastern sacred literature, and the various views of "God" within it, are no less NOR MORE than other people's views of spiritual authority. For some the final authority is not a book or church or temple, but an inner knowing that is echoed in many and varied experiences of the nature of being. For them this inner experience is the most important authority.

It is actually the same for you. For a person can believe many things about God, Jesus or life, but if they remain just heady beliefs they are as air. Your inner experience of Jesus and the truths you find in the Bible are what make them finally alive for you.

Namaste

Originally posted by black beetle
I know you transmit it any way you can out of love and compassion; an Old Cow and a broken down Insect having good time doing no thing!
Namaste
😵

And can our Iron Cow still give birth on the top of a 100 foot pole?
I dare say, I dare say. 😉

Originally posted by josephw
Jesus is "The Way", and not because I say so, but because He said so. Jesus Christ is the final authority.

You say he said so, but how do you know so? What if I say I'm the way? Will you forget Jesus and follow me instead? If not, why not?

*cue the distant flute*

Originally posted by Taoman
And can our Iron Cow still give birth on the top of a 100 foot pole?
I dare say, I dare say. 😉

I dare say, too,
what I cannot show.

Look! Look!
Mind-shadows move
outside my window
in the wind.

Originally posted by Soothfast
*cue the distant flute*

😵

Originally posted by Dasa
Yes and how about the Piltdown Man and Lucy.

Yes, they have proven less than they were claimed to be. But I also do
not agree with the theory of evolution. That, however has nothing to do
with the Shroud of Turin. Scientist are trying their hardest to prove it
a fraud just as they do with the Holy Bible. So far they have been
unsuccessful. I have this 'feeling' or 'sixth sense', as you call it, that
it is the real deal.

Originally posted by Soothfast
You say he said so, but how do you know so? What if I say I'm the way? Will you forget Jesus and follow me instead? If not, why not?

*cue the distant flute*

He rose from the grave after three days and three nights just like He
said He would. He left witnesses who testified to its truth, an empty
tomb, and a picture of his torture on His burial cloth, the Shroud of
Turin, as proof. If He can heal the lame and blind and raise the dead,
including Himself; I believe He can also raise me in the last days. You
are lacking in credibility as a savior.

Originally posted by RJHinds
He rose from the grave after three days and three nights just like He
said He would. He left witnesses who testified to its truth, an empty
tomb, and a picture of his torture on His burial cloth, the Shroud of
Turin, as proof. If He can heal the lame and blind and raise the dead,
including Himself; I believe He can also raise me in the last days. You
are lacking in credibility as a savior.

Unfortunately your "experiment" cannot be replicated. Now, if a bunch of Good Ol' Boys come out of the woods swearing up and down they saw UFOs and met E.T., would you believe that too?

Plus, you can see Jesus being tortured on that burial cloth of yours? What is it, a moving picture like in Harry Potter, or a series of comic frames depicting an action scene? How do you know it belonged to J.C.? If someone says it belonged to J.C. how do you know they aren't just making it up to reinforce the faith?

Why is it you can envision modern scientists being in on a vast and intricate conspiracy to hoodwink everyone with the "lie" of evolution, but you don't seem to question for a second that a third-hand account of a "miracle" that supposedly happened over two thousand years ago might itself be a lie, hoax, or even a conspiracy?

You shape the data to fit your beliefs. It's as simple as that, and it's a sorry way to live out your life.

Originally posted by Soothfast
Unfortunately your "experiment" cannot be replicated. Now, if a bunch of Good Ol' Boys come out of the woods swearing up and down they saw UFOs and met E.T., would you believe that too?

Plus, you can see Jesus being tortured on that burial cloth of yours? What is it, a moving picture like in Harry Potter, or a series of comic frames depicting ...[text shortened]... it your beliefs. It's as simple as that, and it's a sorry way to live out your life.

I'm not sorry at all. I have great things to look forward to. They are
unimaginable. And those Good Ol' Boys would need some proof else
they would have the credibility issue. You don't know anything about
the Shroud of Turin? You certainly need enlightenment.

http://www.shroudstory.com/

Originally posted by RJHinds
I'm not sorry at all. I have great things to look forward to. They are
unimaginable. And those Good Ol' Boys would need some proof else
they would have the credibility issue. You don't know anything about
the Shroud of Turin? You certainly need enlightenment.

http://www.shroudstory.com/

I've just read up on the Shroud at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

Near as I can tell, the simplest explanation would be that it's a forgery crafted by a master Gothic artist. And the radiocarbon dating done by the three labs which peg the shroud as dating back to around 1250 A.D. seems to be sound. That would be precisely the one thing a forger would not be able to fake.

Y'know, just because we don't know with absolute certainty the origins of an artifact that has changed hands countless times over many centuries, that does not mean it's the "real deal". And with this artifact only miniscule samples are ever allowed to be examined. You mock Piltdown man and Lucy, but where's your skepticism when it comes to this shroud? Where is it?

We don't know yet how, precisely, the Incas built their splendid structures using enormous stones that mesh perfectly with no mortar, and we don't know exactly how the Egyptians managed to make their pyramids. There are people out there who are absolutely convinced that the pyramids are evidence that the Egyptians were visited by aliens, and they've written whole books about it. Do you think just because modern science hasn't yet been able to explain the pyramids, that means extraterrestrial beings built them? The shroud is the same thing. In fact, with the shroud we really have to bear in mind the stark reality that countless individuals over the past two millennia have had strong motivations to forge artifacts that they could then tout as "proof" of the messiah. We certainly don't have to be concerned that the Egyptian pyramids were forged to provide "proof" of Little Green Men.

Modern science can't yet explain and duplicate a Stradivarius violin. Modern science does not know exactly how Stonehenge could have been constructed with enormous boulders that were not indigenous to the area. Every gap in modern science is a place where people can still believe in magic, druids, aliens and messiahs. With the shroud, eventually some team will probably come up with a means to duplicate it using exclusively medieval techniques and materials; as with a winning chili recipe, it's just a matter of finding the right combination of ingredients.

The final answer is the radiocarbon dating. I know some are saying "Oh, those samples were from material that was used to repair the shroud in the Middle ages," but I don't think so. Anyway if there are doubts, let's do it again. Even if the shroud dates to around 30 A.D., and even if they could find out it was the shroud of Jesus, it doesn't prove any miracles. Who knows what was going on at the time, and what Jesus' loyal followers might have been capable of to prove their leader was the messiah? There are all sorts of explanations that would be simpler than invoking a chorus of angels and a miracle. Jesus is almost certainly a real historical figure, so it would not be unrealistic to expect there might be some artifacts out there that are connected to him. On the other hand Jesus is a religious icon—so watch out.

Originally posted by RJHinds
http://www.shroudstory.com/

My problem with that site (I've looked it over) is that it seems to be authored by one individual who is de facto "convinced" that the shroud is authentic.

I set much store by Wikipedia, since it has a proven track record of being very reliable, especially when it comes to the "big" topics that frequently get looked up.

Originally posted by vistesd
I dare say, too,
what I cannot show.

Look! Look!
Mind-shadows move
outside my window
in the wind.

*bowing*

wind-like,
sound of the newborn calf,
whistling through the air,

landing nowhere,
he learns to frolic.