05 Jan 11
Originally posted by vishvahetuWhat if Dolphins or Orca's can? What if we are not the only beings on the planet, the only species, that is, that can contemplate the universe and our place in it? Wouldn't that make us less than special?
Robbie means that only humans can question and seek meaning....but a squirrel cant.........do you not see that?
And that is the one thing that separates us from the animals, and if a human doesn't question his existence and seek God, his human birth is wasted, and he is on the same level as an animal.
05 Jan 11
Originally posted by sonhouseEvery living thing is just a soul moving through the different species of life, and the dolphin may not question its existence while its a dolphin, but when the dolphin dies, and the soul takes its next birth in the human form....it may question its life.
What if Dolphins or Orca's can? What if we are not the only beings on the planet, the only species, that is, that can contemplate the universe and our place in it? Wouldn't that make us less than special?
Every living thing always takes birth in the human form, not once but many many times.
Every living thing is special (the soul)......but the body is just dust in the wind, here today, gone tomorrow.
That is why when we are in this human form, we must take advantage of the fact that we can question our existence.....and better still take to the spiritual life, so we dont have to ever take birth in this world of suffering again.
05 Jan 11
Originally posted by vishvahetuSo in your philosophy, there are only X amount of souls? Do these souls take the lives of bacteria? That is to say, do bacteria have souls? Do Viruses have souls? Do Prions have souls? I am trying to understand just exactly what level of life do you consider having souls. If I understand the numbers right, the number of humans who have ever lived amounts to something like a trillion but according to you only a small portion of souls are needed to be put into people at any one time, now amounting to about 7 billion. Where do the extra souls come from when the population doubles? Are there soul banks ready for withdrawal from some cosmic storehouse ready to enter each new human?
Every living thing is just a soul moving through the different species of life, and the dolphin may not question its existence while its a dolphin, but when the dolphin dies, and the soul takes its next birth in the human form....it may question its life.
Every living thing always takes birth in the human form, not once but many many times.
Every li ...[text shortened]... take to the spiritual life, so we dont have to ever take birth in this world of suffering again.
05 Jan 11
Originally posted by sonhouseThere are unlimited souls.
So in your philosophy, there are only X amount of souls? Do these souls take the lives of bacteria? That is to say, do bacteria have souls? Do Viruses have souls? Do Prions have souls? I am trying to understand just exactly what level of life do you consider having souls. If I understand the numbers right, the number of humans who have ever lived amounts to ...[text shortened]... there soul banks ready for withdrawal from some cosmic storehouse ready to enter each new human?
Souls in this universe.
Souls in the other universes.
There are unlimited universes.
You cannot put a number on the amount of souls that exist, because unlimited is unlimited.
If you point in any direction, you will point to infinity.
When a body is finished at death, the soul goes to their next birth....but sometimes there is no arrangement for the soul to take birth immediately, so there is a realm where the soul waits....its the ethereal realm.
The ethereal realm is everywhere, it has no boundaries.
Sometimes the soul stays in the ethereal realm for a long time, and these un-embodied souls are know by some as ghosts.
The un-embodied soul, is in that condition, mainly when they meet death by suicide, because they are desiring to have no life by the act of suicide.
The ethereal body is body that the soul has, that is made of mind, intelligence and false ego.....no flesh or (dust.)
Life is everywhere.... in the snow caps, in the bottom of the ocean, in the air, in the ground, on the ground, in your body, on your skin....everywhere.
But you must not get side tracked, by the shape of the body that the soul inhabits.
You are looking at a bacteria and saying oh gosh, how could a soul be in a bacteria?
But there is your soul in your body, animating it to life,....and the difference is your body is big, and the bacteria is small, and its all the same stuff (dust)
The bacteria may live for 1 day and you may live for 90 years, but all forms are temporary and meet death.
Did you know that the only difference between you and the bacteria is.....that you can question your existence, and the bacteria cant.
If a person goes through life without seeking to know what is this life all about, and why do I have to suffer and die, and how has everything come to be, and what is consciousness, and can I stop the cycle of birth and death, and what is God.
Then that person has wasted the human form, and is on the same level as a bacteria....... truly.
Why?
Because the purpose of the human form of life is to realize what you are in reality (an eternal spiritual being) who has lost their loving relationship with God/Creator.
And every human being has sufficient intelligence to know this.....and if they reject this truth, they will return to take another birth.
But no person is abandoned by God, because when the person desires to know the truth, then all arrangements are made, and they are lead to where truth can be found.
But this age is the age of Kali, and all the souls that are born here at this present time are souls that have been rejecting the spiritual life for a long time, so many are not interested in the real purpose of life, and take to atheism....but there are some who have seen the truth and have taken to spiritual living, and for them returning back home to Godhead is not far off.
05 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergSo essentially what you're saying is that a worldview which espouses atheism isn't so meaningless as other theists have been trying to suggest, but compared to your belief in a
So essentially what you're saying is that a worldview which espouses atheism isn't so meaningless as other theists have been trying to suggest, but compared to your belief in a [hidden]particular[/hidden]god, whatever 'meaning' there is in my worldview is negligible...am I right so far?
If yes, this argument would, I argue, be akin to saying "Jack", for exa ...[text shortened]... magnitude greater than that I can find in my own finite life here on earth.
particular
god, whatever 'meaning' there is in my worldview is negligible...am I right so far?
I think, as stated, that it's a matter of using terms more precisely than what either side has done so far. Life offers a limited amount of joys, of enrichments--- regardless of belief affiliations. The theist observes the sunrise, is warmed by its effusion, is illuminated by its glow and is reminded of the faithfulness of God, heartened by his relationship with the Creator of that sun. The anitheist observes the same sunrise, is warmed by its effusion, is illuminated by its glow and considers the eventual expiration of the universe, disheartened in the knowledge of the futility of even this small enjoyment.
Or, as some antitheists herein are suggesting, the antitheist's perspective of the one-off nature of life imparts a deeper appreciation for said sunrise. Just so, perhaps. However, elements are missing in such a scenario. First and foremost is the logical conclusion. If life is an accident without design (thus no purpose) any purpose ascribed to it on the part of any in possession of it is strictly subjective: your purpose is no better or worse than mine. This brings about the logical conclusion of futility... even the enjoyment aspect. That enjoyment aspect is somewhat hand-in-glove with the other missing element. The antitheist's perspective of impending nothingness would more readily impart desperation than it would ever offer even small vestiges of enrichment, pleasure. It is only by lopping off the logical conclusion of futility that the antitheist is able to continue. If he doesn't have to face the facts of his own belief system, he can enjoy those common niceties.
That being said, his enjoyment of life's goodness is still not on par with the believer's owing to the wholeness, the integrity of the believer's perspective, as well as the believer's ability to associate all good things with the Giver. It is the nature of God, the knowledge of His character which brings the overflowing comfort to the believer. He sees small motions of beauty in life--- symbols, if you will--- and correlates these with the reality behind them. The antitheist's ultimate belief in futility (acknowledged or not) is a self-imposed lock-out.
To quote a needlessly famous character, "I pity the fool."
06 Jan 11
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI find it odd that so many theists seem to think they know so much about what atheists think, but are so often completely wrong and so often won't even believe an atheist when they tell them what they actually do think.
I do find it a bit odd for the antitheist to assert how believers cheapen this life by living this one for the next one, but they somehow fail to see the other option of logical conclusion--- that if this life is all there is, desperation is the name of the game.
06 Jan 11
Originally posted by PsychoPawnvishvahetu is the worse offender for that (that I know of)
I find it odd that so many theists seem to think they know so much about what atheists think, but are so often completely wrong and so often won't even believe an atheist when they tell them what they actually do think.
07 Jan 11
Originally posted by PsychoPawnYou've raised a concern that has nothing to do with the post.
I find it odd that so many theists seem to think they know so much about what atheists think, but are so often completely wrong and so often won't even believe an atheist when they tell them what they actually do think.
07 Jan 11
3 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHYou're still making a point that would only hold (in that *I* would evaluate it as true) were I able to make myself believe that the God you believe in exists and has all of the relevant properties you assign to it (based oin your interpretation of the Bible) - i.e. existence if only finite is purposeless because you have faith in a deity that would render existence eternal. Certainly you don't vindicate the idea in the minds of atheists however.
[b]So essentially what you're saying is that a worldview which espouses atheism isn't so meaningless as other theists have been trying to suggest, but compared to your belief in a [hidden]particular[/hidden]god, whatever 'meaning' there is in my worldview is negligible...am I right so far?
I think, as stated, that it's a matter of using terms more pre imposed lock-out.
To quote a needlessly famous character, "I pity the fool."[/b]
To put it another way, suppose, for the sake of argument, that I believed not only in a god that appeared to have some of the properties you ascribe to it, but actually lacked uniqueness, omnipotence, etc...; and itself along with it's supernatural dwellings were created by some other, more powerful god; god_2, say.
Or, if you like, perhaps your god and these dwellings always existed but your god was <b>awoken by god_2
Moreover, your god receives it's direction from god_2 - and without it would cease to function in the way you trust it will do.
I then assert that it is only this god_2
(which doesn\'t love humans but allows your god to have it\'s playthings)
that imparts meaning to your existence for it created the god that would choose to let you live out your existence in eternity; and without the wisdom of god_2 would eventually become so filled with confusion, and anguish, that it would strike out against it's playthingshumans
in anger - destroying them. Suppose further I believed this based on some so-called holy book.
Would you then be compelled to see your limited religiosity is effectively meaningless given you deny god_2?
No you wouldn't...as far as you're concerned I just made this entity up and so any implications for the meaningfulness of your existence, if I supposed it exists, are moot. Similarly I believe that the authors of your Bible also made up the God you believe in
(or perhaps they plagiarised the stories and beliefs of those which came before them)
- and so what follows from your faith, is from my perspective, moot.
That is - I have no reason to see that my existence is meaningless or negligible in value given that I don't believe your god exists. The meaning that I and others make for their lives is good enough for me; and that we only get one shot means we should do a bloody good job of living now!
07 Jan 11
Originally posted by AgergThat's a lot of shells to follow. Give me a bit to guess which one has the pea.
You're still making a point that would only hold (in that *I* would evaluate it as true) were I able to make myself believe that the God you believe in exists and has all of the relevant properties you assign to it (based oin your interpretation of the Bible) - i.e. existence if only finite is purposeless because you have faith in a deity that would render exi ...[text shortened]... e; and that we only get one shot means we should do a bloody good job of living now!
07 Jan 11
Originally posted by FreakyKBHTo summarise my point: Your insistence that your god imparts any real meaning to existence seems true
That's a lot of shells to follow. Give me a bit to guess which one has the pea.
to you
only since you have faith it's true.
Any claims just as outlandish on my part that would seek to undermine the meaningfulness of your existence would be dismissed so easily by yourself as I and other atheists dismiss yours.