05 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzDo you think not believing is an act of faith? He could be lying. Some folks do. But it may very well be the truth. I've never seen a miracle myself. Heard of them though.
And yet he sees fit to kill thousands in Tsunamis and other events of that ilk.
Personally, I don't believe you. Documented evidence, that's what I need.
It may well have been a psychological impetus to get up and walk, but I don't believe that your preacher man did any healing.
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by Jay JoosWhy do you think so many faith healers of the Benny Henn type communicate that they are the focus and not God? Now I know what they say, but all their actions and demeanor communicate something else.
I have stated what i feel on this and now its time to move on and see if anyone else has any input !
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05 Apr 07
Originally posted by vistesd(3) An event that is claimed to [b]actually contravene the known laws of nature—e.g., virgin birth, walking on water, turning water instantaneously into wine...[/b]
There seem to me to be 3 ways in which people use the word “miracle”:
(1) An improbable event. (“I can’t believe that tree was right there to brake my fall—it’s a miracle I wasn’t killed.” )
(2) An event that is unexplainable by the current body of knowledge. (“I have no way of explaining why your cancer is in remission...” )
(3) An event that ...[text shortened]... one claims that the Tao Te Ching, for example, is or contains a supernatural revelation.
I'm never sure about this definition. There is no reason to think that there are "laws of nature" per se. Scientists merely develop a set of theories to explain observed phenomenon and we simply aggrandise that to the status of a "law." But the word "pattern" might be more appropriate.
Not quite sure what a "miracle" then is. I have often thought the concept of a miracle as something inexplicable by science to be incoherent, because even a miracle performed by God would conform to a pattern (such as, heal loving people), and thus be explicable to scientists. If we accept a miracle to be something that postulates a God, then many theists would have to expand the parameters of the definition of miracles. Panentheists would perceive the universe to be a constant miracle.
In the Catholic Church a healing miracle must be instantaneous, permanent and not explainable by science. Such as if a gash in the stomach suddenly became sewn together, didn't collapse again, and couldn't be explained by, say, magentic fields exerted on metal needles around the area.
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by Conrau KThe older I get the more I tend to see "miracles" as having the possibility of being rather mundane. It is the meaning that we attach to the event that makes it a "miracle" and not the event itself.
[b](3) An event that is claimed to [b]actually contravene the known laws of nature—e.g., virgin birth, walking on water, turning water instantaneously into wine...[/b]
I'm never sure about this definition. There is no reason to think that there are "laws of nature" per se. Scientists merely develop a set of theories to explain observed phenomenon an ...[text shortened]... ldn't be explained by, say, magentic fields exerted on metal needles around the area.[/b]
If I have cancer and want to live another day for whatever reason and I make it to another day, do I not have the right to say it is a miracle?
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzPeople die every day, death is part of the curse of our sins. You have
And yet he sees fit to kill thousands in Tsunamis and other events of that ilk.
Personally, I don't believe you. Documented evidence, that's what I need.
It may well have been a psychological impetus to get up and walk, but I don't believe that your preacher man did any healing.
a point?
Kelly
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by kirksey957Without cancer you are still being blessed with another day, no one is
The older I get the more I tend to see "miracles" as having the possibility of being rather mundane. It is the meaning that we attach to the event that makes it a "miracle" and not the event itself.
If I have cancer and want to live another day for whatever reason and I make it to another day, do I not have the right to say it is a miracle?
promised tomorrow.
Kelly
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzLife is sort here, you and I are not promised tomorrow, and the time
I don't think that a deity which will make someone walk on one hand, whilst simultaneously wiping out tens of thousands of people deserves worship. More fool you if you do.
we have here is a gift you can be thankful for or not. You do not wish
to acknowledge that, that is completely up to you, you want to feel
that you have no one to thank for you life, you are your own universe
and all there is as far as your concern is just what you make it, that
too is up to you. Your life can be as selfish as you want it to be, you
did not create life, you do not hold it together, you cannot add one
moment to your life when your time comes, and you will not be able
to stop what is coming, just as I cannot. The only difference between
you and I isn't that one of us is better than the other, it is only that
God got my attention and I responded to His call.
Yes God does deserve worship, people desire it all the time, and we
give it to them from time to time. The best singers, the best sports
hero, the best this or that and we heap praise upon them. They are
just like us, even the best baseball players are just human with all
the human flaws the rest of us have, the difference between us and
God is that God does not share our faults, and at the moment allows
us to carry on however we desire too. People mistake God's long
suffering with not caring, or being weak, while the truth is that once
God does act, that is it.
Kelly
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by KellyJaySame ole superstitious BS.
Life is sort here, you and I are not promised tomorrow, and the time
we have here is a gift you can be thankful for or not. You do not wish
to acknowledge that, that is completely up to you, you want to feel
that you have no one to thank for you life, you are your own universe
and all there is as far as your concern is just what you make it, that
too i ...[text shortened]... with not caring, or being weak, while the truth is that once
God does act, that is it.
Kelly
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by KellyJayNot a single provable statement there. That must be a record - even for you.
Life is sort here, you and I are not promised tomorrow, and the time
we have here is a gift you can be thankful for or not. You do not wish
to acknowledge that, that is completely up to you, you want to feel
that you have no one to thank for you life, you are your own universe
and all there is as far as your concern is just what you make it, that
too i ...[text shortened]... with not caring, or being weak, while the truth is that once
God does act, that is it.
Kelly
God this, God that. And yet he still wipes people out in horrible, nasty painful (yet imaginative) ways. Like Ebola. Or Schistosomiasis.
05 Apr 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Jay JoosSo, first she is your friend, then she is your sister too?
Were you there !!! i think not...
So you have no right to say what you say... i have cared for her passionatly since the accident happened...nursed her,been a shoulder for her to cry on...stopped her numerous times from killing herself...i have been back and forth to the doctors,hospitals... the doctors were astonished at her recovery as we all were... a urs to the fact that it may well have been a miracle...
My name is Jay Joos...not Man Joos !!!
Are you sure she is not also your wife...or don't you come from the deep south?
Personally I don't believe you either.
I think you made it all up in a pathetic attempt to justify your belief in the non-existent god.
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by josephw"Do you think not believing is an act of faith?"
Do you think not believing is an act of faith? He could be lying. Some folks do. But it may very well be the truth. I've never seen a miracle myself. Heard of them though.
No. Not beleiving is an act of having a lack of faith.
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by vistesdThe important factor is whether or not the known laws of nature have been measurable contravened. I have heard of many faith healing stories and seen many examples on tv etc. At no point has it ever been shown to provably violate the laws of nature. Has anyone ever had a missing limb replaced in a miracle? Did anyone who couldn't walk receive a completely new set of muscles to go with the new ability to walk? Or did they have to excercise to build up their strength again?
(3) An event that is claimed to actually contravene the known laws of nature—e.g., virgin birth, walking on water, turning water instantaneously into wine...
The very nature of faith healing type miracles makes it very clear that either the laws of nature are not broken or there is some underlying rule that it can never be proven that the laws of nature were broken. Maybe God just doesn't want it found out that the laws are not fixed?
Also some faith healers I have seen on tv show strong signs of faking it. No proper case histories or followup's are ever published and I never knew how many people lacked a sense of smell until I watched a faith healer on tv.
Many Christians also believe that many of the miracles mentioned in the Bible did not actually violate the laws of physics but still call them miracles.
For example in the water into wine story, it is quite possible that the owner of the wine had claimed that it was water (in the hope of not having it all drunk) but Jesus knew that and cleverly tricked him by waving his hands over the barrels and saying a few words etc. The owner of the wine could hardly now admit that it was wine all along after previously claiming it was water and Jesus could claim it was a gift from God and not only not pay for it but also gain some credit as well.
05 Apr 07
I have to say I simply do not believe any miracle stories of type 3. There are indeed marvelous events which go against the normal acceptance of process, but these are likely either to be explainable in some way upon investigation, or to be parsimoniously accepted as having a natural origin if investigation does not yield a definite answer.
Stories like that of JJ are to my mind either lies, incomplete descriptions or fishermen's tales; exaggerated and presupposed by those witnessing them.
Until a miracle occurs under observable, measurable and impartially documented conditions there should be no reason to believe them at all.
05 Apr 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzThen you have a closed mind... i dont care if you believe me or not...i saw it with my own eyes with all the evidence at my disposal...
And yet he sees fit to kill thousands in Tsunamis and other events of that ilk.
Personally, I don't believe you. Documented evidence, that's what I need.
It may well have been a psychological impetus to get up and walk, but I don't believe that your preacher man did any healing.
I think God brings about disasters to bring people together in faith... after tsunami and Sept 11 look at how much people came together and helped one another and supported each other...