Morality without God

Originally posted by princeoforange
Pardon?
What's your problem this time?
You like picking arguments for the sake of it don't you?
Sort of person who would make trouble in an empty room.
You are certainly not showing any maturity.

Your flaming detracts from any semblance of meaningful dialogue that might be developing. It's bad enough for the antagonists to show such poor form; all the more embarassing when a self-proclaimed champion of the truth attacks without an effort made toward showing a modicum of respect to the people previously engaged.
Your posts are more akin to the dreaded Stang, than reflective of cogent thought. Since you are new to the forum, I will offer you some friendly advice: with a rate near perfect, no one appreciates flaming spammers, or spamming flamers.
After all, is the end result to show others how smaht you is, or is the end result to share with others the hope that lies within you?

BTW, I tried the empty room thing, but I was continually ignored by the other bigot.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Your flaming detracts from any semblance of meaningful dialogue that might be developing. It's bad enough for the antagonists to show such poor form; all the more embarassing when a self-proclaimed champion of the truth attacks without an effort made toward showing a modicum of respect to the people previously engaged.
Your posts are more akin to the dre ...[text shortened]... in you?

BTW, I tried the empty room thing, but I was continually ignored by the other bigot.

I love that you guys see yourselves as proclaiming the truth - whatever that might be.

It makes me laugh and laugh.
And laughter is a good thing.

Thanks for that.

Originally posted by amannion
You've stated nothing but a belief, you may as well ask us to disprove that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe.

What? You want a proof of God's existance based on the existance of morals? If you're looking for a proof of God, you won't find one. Ever. Not in science. Not in math. Not in philosophy. Not anywhere. God won't allow it. That doesn't mean that we can't reason our way to Him, it just means He won't allow Himself to be a cold hard fact. If He did, one would be a fool not to believe in Him and that's not the kind of relationship He wants with us. He wants us to choose Him, not simply accept Him as a fact.

DF

Originally posted by DragonFriend
What? You want a proof of God's existance based on the existance of morals? If you're looking for a proof of God, you won't find one. Ever. Not in science. Not in math. Not in philosophy. Not anywhere. God won't allow it. That doesn't mean that we can't reason our way to Him, it just means He won't allow Himself to be a cold hard fact. If He did, one w ...[text shortened]... wants with us. He wants us to choose Him, not simply accept Him as a fact.

DF

You misunderstand me.
I don't want proof of God.
I don't need proof.
I know he doesn't exist.

Your perspectve is entirely appropriate.
What really annoys me is the perspective of some faithfull who want to go on about the fact the God's existence can be proved and then never seem to be able to generate that proof ...

Originally posted by amannion
I love that you guys see yourselves as proclaiming the truth - whatever that might be.

It makes me laugh and laugh.
And laughter is a good thing.

Thanks for that.

Hang on a sec, there cinnamon. You're the one clinging to atheism as a belief system, without a reason. At least Christianity is a reasoned faith, based on known items.
While God cannot be proven via the physical process, neither can He be disproven, thereby removing His existence from the field of scientific endeavors.
Your atheism denies His existence based on... well, your belief!

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Hang on a sec, there cinnamon. You're the one clinging to atheism as a belief system, without a reason. At least Christianity is a reasoned faith, based on known items.
While God cannot be proven via the physical process, neither can He be disproven, thereby removing His existence from the field of scientific endeavors.
Your atheism denies His existence based on... well, your belief!

And you Christianity claims his existance based on... well, your belief.

Originally posted by bbarr
See above.

So you're saying morals grew out of simple cooperation?
Why is it so hard to get rid of the Columbian drugs lords? Because thier might makes them right (at least in their eyes) and even the cooperation of governments isn't able to stop them. And yet, in a more primative setting, you think cooperation of people against the big guy caused him to stop being a thug? I disagree.

DF

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Are we beyond this? Really? Even nowadays might does (unfortunately) make right. It's not necessarily the man with the biggest muscles who is right, but ask yourself why there are so many lobby-ists in Washington (or any similar centre of governnment) if it's not the case? You rarely hear of the rich (and powerful - notice how those two go to ...[text shortened]... ht is right (provided it's their might) - and they have (allegedly) the ultimate underwriter.

You make a good point.

DF

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
And you Christianity claims his existance based on... well, your belief.

Aack! They cut the wrong skin when performing the circumcision, it appears.
Christianity is based on historically verifiable facts, in addition to logic and reason. Bolstering its claim of veracity, nothing within the known world has yet to contradict its claims. Thus, my belief.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Hang on a sec, there cinnamon. You're the one clinging to atheism as a belief system, without a reason. At least Christianity is a reasoned faith, based on known items.
While God cannot be proven via the physical process, neither can He be disproven, thereby removing His existence from the field of scientific endeavors.
Your atheism denies His existence based on... well, your belief!

i find this makes me have to point again to the FSM though. The belief of it is based on the same "known items" system as christianity. You can not prove it's existence, you can not disprove it. It is a belief, but you may argue, not a very bright one but where then would that leave you?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Aack! They cut the wrong skin when performing the circumcision, it appears.
Christianity is based on historically verifiable facts, in addition to logic and reason. Bolstering its claim of veracity, nothing within the known world has yet to contradict its claims. Thus, my belief.

Well we could debate endlessly the historical verification of Christianity. But I won't go there.
Logic and reason seem to be in short supply when some Christians get into their 'NT is literal, chuck out the rest' mode. But I won't go there.

But, c'mon ... nothing within the known world has yet to contradict its claims?
That smacks of Christianity as Science, and I sure will go there. There is nothing remotely scientific about Christianity.

I don't doubt your belief.
And yes mine is a belief too, I grant that.
But to claim that Christianity is constructed from reasoned starting points whereas Atheism is not, is to completely misrepresent your faith.

Originally posted by Rolfey
i find this makes me have to point again to the FSM though. The belief of it is based on the same "known items" system as christianity. You can not prove it's existence, you can not disprove it. It is a belief, but you may argue, not a very bright one but where then would that leave you?

Do the words absurd and irrelevant ring a bell? Come on, Rolfey! At least get out of the vaccum and back in the real world. If you wish to posit some other belief system as possessing more viability than Christianity, at least come up with something measurable and verifiable.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Do the words absurd and irrelevant ring a bell? Come on, Rolfey! At least get out of the vaccum and back in the real world. If you wish to posit some other belief system as possessing more viability than Christianity, at least come up with something measurable and verifiable.

Hang on, either you're suggesting that Christianity is exempt from being measured and verified, or else that it can be measured and verified!

What's the measurement?
The number of Christians it takes to change a light bulb?

What's the verification?
Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit is Jesus?

Originally posted by amannion
Well we could debate endlessly the historical verification of Christianity. But I won't go there.
Logic and reason seem to be in short supply when some Christians get into their 'NT is literal, chuck out the rest' mode. But I won't go there.

But, c'mon ... nothing within the known world has yet to contradict its claims?
That smacks of Christianity as ...[text shortened]... reasoned starting points whereas Atheism is not, is to completely misrepresent your faith.

Logic and reason seem to be in short supply with many on both sides of the aisle. You admit yourself that your belief is not based on reason.
Just because a person holding to a certain belief is unable to supply logical and cogent arguments for their belief does not detract from the veracity of that belief. Some people are just better at arguing than others, in that regard.
That your reasons for holding to atheism could be shredded in less than a page of posts is not likely to make you change your mind. You could fall back on a number of justifications for your steadfastness, including that you really just didn't feel like arguing (what you consider to be) a moot point.

Christianity does not claim to teach science. That subject, while worthy, falls far short of the elevated status of theology.

If Christianity had no footing in actual historical occurences, it would be as irrelevant and absurd as the FSM.

Originally posted by amannion
Hang on, either you're suggesting that Christianity is exempt from being measured and verified, or else that it can be measured and verified!

What's the measurement?
The number of Christians it takes to change a light bulb?

What's the verification?
Jesus is God is the Holy Spirit is Jesus?

The histrocity of all religions are verifiable and measurable.
Verifiable utilizing harmonious sources; measurable relative to amount of sources; reliability related to both.

For instance, the claims of the Mormons can be traced directly back to their book of Mormon. That book can be traced directly to an unpublished romance novel, found in the shop by a bored janitor.