25 Sep 12
2 edits
Originally posted by KellyJayand so, if you converted to islam, would you still call yourself a christian?
Really, why do you say that since the Church started out with nothing but Jews?
Kelly
don't confuse a member of the judean tribe from a member of the jewish religion.
a member of the judean tribe may be jewish, christian, muslim, any other religion or none at all.
it works the other way around as well. a member of any perceived race may become jewish.
25 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritSo your saying as soon as someone accepted Jesus Christ they were no longer
and so, if you converted to islam, would you still call yourself a christian?
don't confuse a member of the judean tribe from a member of the jewish religion.
a member of the judean tribe may be jewish, christian, muslim, any other religion or none at all.
it works the other way around as well. a member of any perceived race may become jewish.
Jewish so Peter, Paul, John, and all the others stopped being Jewish? I don't think
you can do that, and yes I get that practicing the Jewish religion isn't the same as
being born into a Jewish family. I know Muslims think along those lines or at
least I believe they do. You are of the mind you lose your Jewish heritage by
being anything other than a practicing Jew, I guess I just will disagree with you.
Kelly
25 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritHow do you know I am not doing the will of the Father. Is it the same way you know the theory of evolution is a fact, by speculating?Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
25 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritIf enough people claim to be a horse, then they will be put in the dictionary. The problem comes when they claim to fit the current definition of 'horse' and they do not match that definition. However I don't believe that is the case when it comes to 'Christian'.
a person can claim to be a horse. it's not important what they claim.
I think it is important what people claim and what they wish to call themselves.
For example some people call themselves 'Satanists' yet they do not believe in the existence of Satan. They have their own meaning for the word, and by their meaning they are not wrong.
Similarly being 'Jewish' could refer to your religion, your culture, or your genetic inheritance or your descent from other people calling themselves 'Jews'. Who are we to decide who the 'True Jew' is?
25 Sep 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadif the definition is ever redefined, they may call themselves by that new term. but as long as the original definition remains, we go by those.
If enough people claim to be a horse, then they will be put in the dictionary.
The problem comes when they claim to fit the current definition of 'horse' and they do not match that definition. However I don't believe that is the case when it comes to 'Christian'.
why not? we still have a definition of what it is to be a christian in the new testament.
those that redefine what it meas to be a christian come up with special identifiers for their beliefs; for example "catholic," "protestant," "jehova witness" and so on. often they even sub-define those categories.
I think it is important what people claim and what they wish to call themselves.
For example some people call themselves 'Satanists' yet they do not believe in the existence of Satan. They have their own meaning for the word, and by their meaning they are not wrong.
Similarly being 'Jewish' could refer to your religion, your culture, or your genetic inheritance or your descent from other people calling themselves 'Jews'. Who are we to decide who the 'True Jew' is?
i don't hold any importance on what people claim to be. i place importance on how people behave in relation to what they claim to be. if a person claims to be a horse and goes around on all fours, whining, hanging out at the stable and generally behaving like a horse, then i would grant them that identification, not before.
25 Sep 12
Originally posted by KellyJayif a jew converts to christianity, they stop being jewish. it's as simple as that. they continue to be judeans/hebrews (if they started out as that), there is no giving up a heritage (unless they specifically give that up too).
So your saying as soon as someone accepted Jesus Christ they were no longer
Jewish so Peter, Paul, John, and all the others stopped being Jewish? I don't think
you can do that, and yes I get that practicing the Jewish religion isn't the same as
being born into a Jewish family. I know Muslims think along those lines or at
least I believe they do. You are ...[text shortened]... by
being anything other than a practicing Jew, I guess I just will disagree with you.
Kelly
peter, paul, john, etc. all gave up being jews the moment they were baptized into the christian faith. form that moment on, they were christians.
25 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritAnd who has ownership of this 'original definition'? What makes you so sure that what you think it is, is the correct one? If the Mormons call themselves Christian then they are just as 'original' as you are.
if the definition is ever redefined, they may call themselves by that new term. but as long as the original definition remains, we go by those.
we still have a definition of what it is to be a christian in the new testament.
So you claim. But even the New Testament doesn't have ownership of the word.
those that redefine what it meas to be a christian come up with special identifiers for their beliefs; for example "catholic," "protestant," "jehova witness" and so on. often they even sub-define those categories.
No, they do not 'redefine what it means', they sub classify themselves.
i don't hold any importance on what people claim to be.
Its not what they claim to be, its what they choose to call themselves. There is a significant difference.
25 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThats simply not true. There is nothing about their beliefs that were anti-Jewish keeping in mind that the Jewish religion has quite a wide variety of beliefs. They just added some more beliefs.
peter, paul, john, etc. all gave up being jews the moment they were baptized into the christian faith. form that moment on, they were christians.
I am starting to realize that your definitions for these words is actually a long long way from the common usage definitions.
26 Sep 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadi didn't say they became anti-jewish. i said they stopped being jews and converted to the christian religion. they didn't just add some new beliefs, they began to worship a god called the "father," they began to accept hellenistic ideas of heaven and hell, all these things were foreign heresies to the jews and such beliefs were rejected.
Thats simply not true. There is nothing about their beliefs that were anti-Jewish keeping in mind that the Jewish religion has quite a wide variety of beliefs. They just added some more beliefs.
I am starting to realize that your definitions for these words is actually a long long way from the common usage definitions.
i think you're the one confusing definitions of words. you're confusing the jewish religion with the judean tribe. it's not really your fault, the jews use the term "jew" interchangeably to describe their religion and their tribe. but you need to realize that there are jews (judeans) who are not jewish, and non-jews (non-judeans) who are jewish. the jewish non-jews can be anything from other hebrew tribes to gentiles who converted to the jewish religion.
26 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritYes, they became Christians who as you point out are still Judeans/Hebrews which
if a jew converts to christianity, they stop being jewish. it's as simple as that. they continue to be judeans/hebrews (if they started out as that), there is no giving up a heritage (unless they specifically give that up too).
peter, paul, john, etc. all gave up being jews the moment they were baptized into the christian faith. form that moment on, they were christians.
is still being a Jewish person. You are born into that, it does not mean you have
to practice it, and on top of that as far as I'm concern the Christian faith is just
what comes after the Jewish faith, since Jesus is the One they were waiting for,
not BO.
Kelly
26 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpirit"i think you're the one confusing definitions of words. you're confusing the jewish religion with the judean tribe. it's not really your fault, the jews use the term "jew" interchangeably to describe their religion and their tribe."
i didn't say they became anti-jewish. i said they stopped being jews and converted to the christian religion. they didn't just add some new beliefs, they began to worship a god called the "father," they began to accept hellenistic ideas of heaven and hell, all these things were foreign heresies to the jews and such beliefs were rejected.
i think you' ...[text shortened]... be anything from other hebrew tribes to gentiles who converted to the jewish religion.
You should think about what you just said here, if this is how they view themselves
who are you to say otherwise?
Kelly
26 Sep 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritNo, those ideas were foreign heresies to some of the other Jews. So the Jewish religion gained a new sect or denomination. How does one decide who is the 'True Jew'? Most of the other aspects of the Jewish religion were equally imported from other peoples and were probably at some point regarded as foreign heresies by some members of the Jewish tribe.
they didn't just add some new beliefs, they began to worship a god called the "father," they began to accept hellenistic ideas of heaven and hell, all these things were foreign heresies to the jews and such beliefs were rejected.
i think you're the one confusing definitions of words. you're confusing the jewish religion with the judean tribe.
No, I am not. I think it is you that is confusing the two. The very fact that you see hellenistic ideas as 'foreign' tells us that you are associating the Jewish religion with the Judean tribe. I don't think you would call any of the ideas the Christians imported 'foreign'.