Originally posted by NemesioIt also flat out stuns me that Darfius can't understand the "wicked servant" parable of Matthew 25:14-30 is DIRECTLY related to the Judgment Day provision of Matthew 25:31-46. What did the wicked servant do wrong? He did not increase the number of "talents" his master gave him while the others did. That is the same thing that the damned did; they did not increase the welfare of their common man ("talents"😉 by using the blessings their master (i.e. God) bestowed upon them. The parable is teaching that you MUST perform good works to get into Heaven; Jesus tells the parable first to reinforce the message He gives in his rendition of how men will be judged on Judgment Day.
Let me get this straight, Darfius.
Are you suggesting that a Christian does not have a mandate
to help the poor (regardless of religion)? Or does a Christian only
have a mandate to help the poor Christian?
Please clarify for me.
Nemesio
I seriously doubt Darfius ever studied the Gospels if he cannot understand the basic point of this parable.
Originally posted by no1marauderIf we are saved through our works, why did Jesus say we had to believe on Him, no1? Please quit avoiding this.
It also flat out stuns me that Darfius can't understand the "wicked servant" parable of Matthew 25:14-30 is DIRECTLY related to the Judgment Day provision of Matthew 25:31-46. What did the wicked servant do wrong? He did not increase the number of "talents" his master gave him while the others did. That is the same thing that the damned did; ...[text shortened]... doubt Darfius ever studied the Gospels if he cannot understand the basic point of this parable.
Originally posted by NemesioOf course not, Nemesio. Helping the poor is something we do out of love. It is NOT a mandate for salvation. Matthew 25 was Jesus simply saying that if you do NO works, it is highly unlikely you are saved, because our faith is magnified through our works and our works glorify God.
Let me get this straight, Darfius.
Are you suggesting that a Christian does not have a mandate
to help the poor (regardless of religion)? Or does a Christian only
have a mandate to help the poor Christian?
Please clarify for me.
Nemesio
No1 is attempting to take it horribly out of context of the ENTIRE BOOK OF MATTHEW. I did the same with a MLK speech and he is ignoring it.
Originally posted by DarfiusHow do you show your belief in God, Darfius? By doing what Jesus said in Matthew 25. I do not see how it can be ANY clearer; He specifically lays out what will happen on Judgment Day, no ifs ands or buts. If you want to claim what He says in Matthew 25 is contradicted by other passages, go ahead but you can't claim it doesn't say what it says: that we will be judged on how we treated our fellow man, period. Why did He bother to give such a detailed description of Judgment Day and omit the faith part, Darfius?
If we are saved through our works, why did Jesus say we had to believe on Him, no1? Please quit avoiding this.
The bridesmaid parable also says that you can't just wait for the last minute and then say I believe in Jesus and be saved like RBHILL claims: it means we have to be doing good works all through our lives as we never know when death will come. This refutes another belief of your Fundamentalist cult.
EDIT: Darfius: Matthew 25 was Jesus simply saying that if you do NO works, it is highly unlikely you are saved, because our faith is magnified through our works and our works glorify God.
Find the words "highly unlikely" and "faith"in Matthew 25; you continue to deliberately lie about the passage. Disgusting.
Originally posted by no1marauderYou should start a Matthew 25 cult.
How do you show your belief in God, Darfius? By doing what Jesus said in Matthew 25. I do not see how it can be ANY clearer; He specifically lays out what will happen on Judgment Day, no ifs ands or buts. If you want to claim what He says in Matthew 25 is contradicted by other passages, go ahead but you can't claim it doesn't say what it says: ...[text shortened]... as we never know when death will come. This refutes another belief of your Fundamentalist cult.
Originally posted by DarfiusIt is not a mandate? St Matthew 25:31-46 doesn't say 'if you don't
Of course not, Nemesio. Helping the poor is something we do out of love. It is NOT a mandate for salvation. Matthew 25 was Jesus simply saying that if you do NO works, it is highly unlikely you are saved, because our faith is magnified through our works and our works glorify God.
do these things, you MIGHT get eternal punishment.' It's pretty much
cause and effect.
Also, works are a necessary part of justification, as per St James
2:14-26, especially 24 and 26 which read, 'See how a person is
justified by works and not by faith alone...For just as a body without a
spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.'
It says nothing about faith 'magnifying' works, they are two different
entities, both of which are absolutely required, as per St Matthew's
Jesus (there is no 'permissiveness' about that parable) and especially
St James.
Nemesio
(sigh) This is entirely proposterous. There exist two very basic concepts of Christian theology here that are sorely missed.
Formost, and most simply, what you do is irrelevant in your spiritual salvation. If actions could get you into heaven, you would not need Christ. Good works from a Christian are done out of love and respect for their God and fellow man, that is all. NT mentioning of such acts of "good will" are in specific reference to said appreciaton/love/etc., with an overtone that prominently suggests self reflection. The bottome line equation (and explanation) for this relies upon the Christian concepts of sin, specifically how we sin, why we sin, and what that means to God. If anybody really wants to talk about this much scripture that in depth, I would be happy to do so but would prefer to do it in PM to avoid a barrage of questions from a dozen different perspectives ( I can only answer so many bells at once 😉 ). That said, you can take my word for or not. Read the book, that is where my understanding is from and how I would back these statements up. If you find something different there after open and honest reflection, so be it. We can discuss it or not, as you choose.
Secondly, it is not a mans place to judge his fellow man. Since we are already making an attempt to back up pro-judgement with scripture, allow me to retort with scripture.
(forwardly, I apologize for only having a Gideons Bible handy at the time.)
A few NT quotes (which you will find are not out of context):
Matthew Chapter 7
1:Judge not, that you be not judged. 2: For with what judgement you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3: and why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4: Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5: Hypocrite! First remover the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
and since I like to have an example from both sides, here one form the OT as well. I'll keep it short this time:
Romans Chapter 2
1: Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same thing.
The chapter continues on in judgement, but is more specific about placing judgement upon those when you your self are just as guily, just as unrighteous. Feel free to read the rest of the book, as I do encourage a comprehensive understanding, especially when people quote verse such as I am doing here (I just grow weary of copying from the most widely published book in history).
Pax Vobiscum,
Deus Ex Machina
Originally posted by no1marauderThis is veeeeery scripturaly defendable. Like I said, if you want the whole nine yards of scripture supporting this we should do it by PM, because I am talking pages upon pages brother. We would start at the very premise of sin and maneuver from there. Consider if you will though salvation by grace. True Christianity is the only mainstream religion in the world that offers a definitive salvation by grace (and by that I mean you are saved by grace, and know that you have been saved beyond doubt by this grace).
Formost, and most simply, what you do is irrelevant in your spiritual salvation. If actions could get you into heaven, you would not need Christ.
In the light of Matthew 25 and Jesus' description of Judgment Day please explain why you believe this statement is scripturally defensible.
If you want a theology that rewards you based upon your good works I recommend the Mormons. 😉
EDIT: If you really want me to post it all here I suppose I could do that, but it will be VERY time consuming and I lack that time today. I will be back in in a few days and will do so then if that's what you really want. But....please.....don't ask me to go to all this trouble unless you are sincerly curious about the matter. I'm not asking you to convert or anything, but please don't ask me to do this if you don't really want to learn. It will be a LOT of typing and looking up passages.
Pax Vobiscum
Originally posted by OmnislashI would prefer a theology that at least pretends to take the words of the one that they claim is the Son of God seriously.
This is veeeeery scripturaly defendable. Like I said, if you want the whole nine yards of scripture supporting this we should do it by PM, because I am talking pages upon pages brother. We would start at the very premise of sin and maneuver from there. Consider if you will though salvation by grace. True Christianity is the only mainstream religion in the ...[text shortened]...
If you want a theology that rewards you based upon your good works I recommend the Mormons. 😉
Originally posted by no1marauderIt amazes me how they want to take that warmed over Sumerian flood story literally and yet think the words of their Savior are less an indication of Salvation than the words of somebody that never met Him. The religion aint called Paulianity is it?
I would prefer a theology that at least pretends to take the words of the one that they claim is the Son of God seriously.
Originally posted by no1marauderMATTHEW 7:1-5
Luke 6:37 And judge not, and ye shall not be judged: and condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: release, and ye shall be released:
Jesus made himself perfectly clear that man are not to judge other man and I don't know how he could have made it any plainer. If you reject this, you are rejecting the word of Jesus.
There is no rejection of THE WORD OF GOD, just a difference of undrestanding. JESUS clearly gave understanding about judgeing. The understanding of one may not be on the same level of understanding as the other.