Nice Stories about Religions

Originally posted by brobluto
I never said it was an easy concept to grasp. and you're right, I'm probably using the wrong terminology, but I haven't found a better term yet.

Who said I am a non-theist? I don't know what I am, I have my own thoughts on things and they are subject to change (although I'm finding it harder and harder to find reasons to change what I think). What -ist am I?

I have a suspicion that, once the inaccurate terminology is stripped away, you will be left with something like "people make choices based on their own values", a much less controversial statement.

I'll wait until you have refined your terminology before discussing this further.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
He's making a much stronger claim than that. He claims that [b]all instances of choosing death are motivated [at least in part] by self-interest.[/b]

I have long tended to agree with him. More recently I have come to see that both his side and yours says pretty much the same thing. The disagreement is in the precise meanings of words.

Let us suppose that a man is pointing a gun at my (hypothetical) daughter. He has one bullet and plans to shoot her. My daughter is a brilliant and noble human being who I love dearly. She contributes far more to the world than I ever have and will live a long, healthy life if not shot. I leap in front of the bullet. She's my daughter; a woman; someone who does more good in the world than I do, and has more life left to do good in; etc. In short, it's the right thing to do to save her.

Why do I do the right thing to do? Because it's important to me. What does that mean? It means I find it rewarding to do the right thing, and unpleasant if I should do the wrong thing.

The one side seems to look at what it means to care; the other side seems to look at what it is an individual cares about. In the one case, we're all selfish all the time, because we each do what we are motivated to do. In the other, we're not, because we might be motivated by "non-selfish" things like what we think is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I have long tended to agree with him. More recently I have come to see that both his side and yours says pretty much the same thing. The disagreement is in the precise meanings of words.

Let us suppose that a man is pointing a gun at my (hypothetical) daughter. He has one bullet and plans to shoot her. My daughter is a brilliant and noble human be motivated by "non-selfish" things like what we think is the right thing to do.

Well, yes, the heart of the disagreement is the meaning of words like "selfish" and "self-interest".

In the case of your [hypothetical] daughter, you have no idea if your action will really save her. The man with the gun could easily shoot her after he shoots you. Nevertheless, your concern for her was so strong that you did everything in your power to stop her from being shot. This is a total abrogation of self-interest. Self-interest is defined as a concern for one's own advantage and well-being; taking a bullet in the chest is completely at odds with this. [I realize you may not entirely disagree with this.]

It is even possible that it all happens so fast that you act on instinct, without any deliberation at all.

In the one case, we're all selfish all the time, because we each do what we are motivated to do.

We can be motivated to help others. Actions that show regard for others cannot, by definition, be called selfish.

I'm in complete agreement with the last sentence of your post, of course.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I have long tended to agree with him. More recently I have come to see that both his side and yours says pretty much the same thing. The disagreement is in the precise meanings of words.

Let us suppose that a man is pointing a gun at my (hypothetical) daughter. He has one bullet and plans to shoot her. My daughter is a brilliant and noble human ...[text shortened]... be motivated by "non-selfish" things like what we think is the right thing to do.

Is the right thing to do, not in some way self-serving? How is it not? To do what you believe is right makes you feel righteous and strong. To do what you believe is wrong makes you feel shameful and weak. Which one of these is closer to your own personal happiness?

Originally posted by brobluto
Is the right thing to do, not in some way self-serving? How is it not? To do what you believe is right makes you feel righteous and strong. To do what you believe is wrong makes you feel shameful and weak. Which one of these is closer to your own personal happiness?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-serving

self-serving: serving one's own interests often in disregard of the truth or the interests of others

It's amazing how you insist on using incorrect terminology in your argument even after it has been pointed out to you. You don't even know what you really want to say, yet that fact doesn't slow you down for a minute. Wow.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-serving

self-serving: serving one's own interests often in disregard of the truth or the interests of others

It's amazing how you insist on using incorrect terminology in your argument even after it has been pointed out to you. You don't even know what you really want to say, yet that fact doesn't slow you down for a minute. Wow.

Actually, in my example, it is used correctly. it just so happens that the choice may show regard for another, but the motives are still self-serving.

Originally posted by brobluto
Actually, in my example, it is used correctly. it just so happens that the choice may show regard for another, but the motives are still self-serving.

Unless I make a decision against my will, then any decision I make is according to my will. In that sense it is self serving. However, it does not in any way mean that the decision will benefit me or that I think it will benefit me. It is painfully obvious that your initial claim that all my decisions are intended to make me happy. Your new version of 'self serving' is along the lines of 'all my decisions are intended to benefit me.' Again, such a claim is fatally flawed.

Originally posted by brobluto
Actually, in my example, it is used correctly. it just so happens that the choice may show regard for another, but the motives are still self-serving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism

Originally posted by Green Paladin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism

THANK YOU! I honestly never heard of that term before but it explains my view perfectly. I read it briefly and scanned over the criticisms of it, which I think I have already conceded in this thread.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Unless I make a decision against my will, then any decision I make is according to my will. In that sense it is self serving. However, it does not in any way mean that the decision will benefit me or that I think it will benefit me. It is painfully obvious that your initial claim that all my decisions are intended to make me happy. Your new version of 'se nes of 'all my decisions are intended to benefit me.' Again, such a claim is fatally flawed.

As Green Paladin indicates via wikipedia, it is not fatally flawed. It is non-falsifiable.

I guess that means, that I may not be able to prove it, but you won't be able to disprove it either, which I already said previously.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
No, I was born into an atheistic household. I assume you're willing to answer personal questions about your past since you're so willing to ask them, right?

Ask I'll answer.
Kelly

Originally posted by brobluto
Actually, in my example, it is used correctly. it just so happens that the choice may show regard for another, but the motives are still self-serving.

self-serving: serving one's own interests often in disregard of the truth or the interests of others

Originally posted by SwissGambit
self-serving: serving one's own interests [b]often in disregard of the truth or the interests of others[/b]

you said it yourself: "often" not "always" ...thanks for proving my point.

Originally posted by brobluto
you said it yourself: "often" not "always" ...thanks for proving my point.

You have no point.

By deliberately using the term 'self-serving' with a meaning you know is very uncommon, all you do is confuse people. Have fun explaining what you really mean to every new person who joins the thread.

Originally posted by brobluto
As Green Paladin indicates via wikipedia, it is not fatally flawed. It is non-falsifiable.

You don't realize that non-falsifiability is a flaw?