05 Feb 10
Originally posted by whodeyThat is not what this thread is about. Let me remind you of the title of this thread: "no faith = no righteousness".
The question is, does he hear from God and is his faith based on the living God? I believe Abraham did as where I don't believe Bin Laden does.
bin Ladin has faith, therefore he is righteous, according to the OP, right?
By supposing that faith is only one kind of faith, the christian one, he is religiocentric. And this is my point.
05 Feb 10
Originally posted by FabianFnasFaith in Christ I think is what was intended by the OP.
That is not what this thread is about. Let me remind you of the title of this thread: "no faith = no righteousness".
bin Ladin has faith, therefore he is righteous, according to the OP, right?
By supposing that faith is only one kind of faith, the christian one, he is religiocentric. And this is my point.
05 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillSo there is no faith other than the christian faith, according to you? Like the faith of Gandi as the example of OP?
Faith in Christ I think is what was intended by the OP.
Let me remind you that most people in the world is not christians, not even 50%. Why is the christian faith so important when there are so many other faiths in the world? Are you religiocentric too?
05 Feb 10
Originally posted by whodeyAbraham killed nobody, so your question is rather stupid.
.. So tell me, is kiilling your son a work that should be rewarded
Abraham was obedient. And Yes obedience is a work that should be rewarded.
So please respond to the Romans 2 question which is relevant to this thread and which says that those who know not the law (of Moses) and do good works will be justified.
05 Feb 10
2 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnas===================================
So there is no faith other than the christian faith, according to you? Like the faith of Gandi s the example of OP?
Let me remind you that most people in the world is not christians, not even 50%. Why is the christian faith so important when there are so many other faiths in the world? Are you religiocentric too?
So there is no faith other than the christian faith, according to you?
=====================================
According to the New Testament Ghandi and you and me are in need of the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from our sins. Without that we will be lost in eternal perdition.
"Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath. " (Romans 4:9)
=================
Like the faith of Gandi s the example of OP?
Let me remind you that most people in the world is not christians, not even 50%. Why is the christian faith so important when there are so many other faiths in the world? Are you religiocentric too?
===========================
Whatever Ghandi's situation, whatever the situation of these alledged 50% other people in the world, that is not your situation.
You have heard the message of Christ's salvation. You have to decide what you are going to do with that message.
Most of the time when the sinner reacts with "But, but, but what about these people over here ? And what about those people over there? And what about those other people way over there and this guy here and so and and so forth" this is only the sinner's attempt at rationalizing away the decision that he must make as what to do with Jesus.
God can take care Ghandi. What will YOU do with Jesus now that you know you need His blood to cleanse you of your sins that you may be saved from the wrath of God ?
05 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillFull of illusions...
According to the New Testament Ghandi and you and me are in need of the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from our sins. Without that we will be lost in eternal perdition.
need His blood to cleanse you of your sins that you may be saved from the wrath of God ?
05 Feb 10
2 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnasMy only point here is that one must have faith in a righteous God in order to be righteous. The reason being is that not everything we think is "good" is actually "good". Although we have an inner compus that tell us good from bad, we all have a skewed sense of righteousness at times. For example, a sociopath has an extremely skewed sense of right and wrong. If he were to go by his internal moral compus we are all screwed. Likewise, with Abraham his moral compus was probably screaming its head off when he was asked to sacrifice his son, yet, he knew the voice of God and followed it to obedience. Now if he was not hearing from God he was placing his faith in something or someone that is not righteous. At some point, he would then fall short of the goal of righteousness.
That is not what this thread is about. Let me remind you of the title of this thread: "no faith = no righteousness".
bin Ladin has faith, therefore he is righteous, according to the OP, right?
By supposing that faith is only one kind of faith, the christian one, he is religiocentric. And this is my point.
05 Feb 10
Originally posted by Rajk999Simply put, would Abraham have followed through with the command had God not stopped him?
Abraham killed nobody, so your question is rather stupid.
Abraham was obedient. And Yes obedience is a work that should be rewarded.
So please respond to the Romans 2 question which is relevant to this thread and which says that those who know not the law (of Moses) and do good works will be justified.
05 Feb 10
Originally posted by whodeyIntending to kill his son opnly because some authority tells you to means that you've lost your ability to think for yourself. This is not righteous. What if noone hindered him, then would he kill his son? Yes of course. So he was infact about to be a murderer of the first degree.
My only point here is that one must have faith in a righteous God in order to be righteous. The reason being is that not everything we think is "good" is actually "good". Although we have an inner compus that tell us good from bad, we all have a skewed sense of righteousness at times. For example, a sociopath has an extremely skewed sense of right and wron ...[text shortened]... hat is not righteous. At some point, he would then fall short of the goal of righteousness.
Is this how you define 'righteous'? To be prepared to kill your son? Only because someone tells you to? Then I'm happy to say I wouldn't want to be like that. My son can feel safe.
05 Feb 10
2 edits
Originally posted by FabianFnasRighteousness
Intending to kill his son opnly because some authority tells you to means that you've lost your ability to think for yourself. This is not righteous. What if noone hindered him, then would he kill his son? Yes of course. So he was infact about to be a murderer of the first degree.
Is this how you define 'righteous'? To be prepared to kill your son? Onl ...[text shortened]... tells you to? Then I'm happy to say I wouldn't want to be like that. My son can feel safe.
The Hebrew tsedheq and tsedhaqah as well as the Greek dikaiosyne have the thought of “rectitude,” “uprightness,” indicating a standard or norm determining what is upright. “Righteousness” is frequently used in connection with a judge, or with judgment, giving the term a somewhat legal flavor (hence, the original-language terms are at times translated “justice&rdquo😉. (Ps 35:24; 72:2; 96:13; Isa 11:4; Re 19:11) In the Mosaic Law, at Leviticus 19:36, tsedheq is used four times in connection with business transactions: “You should prove to have accurate [“just,” AT, KJ, Le] scales, accurate weights, an accurate ephah and an accurate hin.”
God Sets the Standard. Greek scholar Kenneth S. Wuest says: “God is the objective standard which determines the content of meaning of dikaios [righteous], and at the same time keeps that content of meaning constant and unchanging, since He is the unchanging One.” He then quotes Cremer as saying: “Righteousness in the biblical sense is a condition of rightness the standard of which is God, which is estimated according to the divine standard, which shows itself in behavior conformable to God, and has to do above all things with its relation to God, and with the walk before Him. It is, and it is called dikaiosune theou (righteousness of God) (Rom. 3:21; 1:17), righteousness as it belongs to God, and is of value before Him, Godlike righteousness, see Eph. 4:24; with this righteousness thus defined, the gospel (Rom. 1:17) comes into the world of nations which had been wont to measure by a different standard.”—Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, 1946, p. 37.
Luke shows the sense of ones being righteous in saying of the priest Zechariah and his wife Elizabeth (the parents of John the Baptizer): “They both were righteous before God because of walking blamelessly in accord with all the commandments and legal requirements of Jehovah.” (Lu 1:6) Righteousness is measured by conformity to God’s will and his commands. His specific commands may vary from one time to another and from one person to another—his command to Noah to build an ark has never been repeated nor does his command regarding circumcision apply to Christians. Nevertheless, God’s personal standards, his personality, and what he is, as expressed in his words and ways, remain ever constant and hence provide a perfect standard, ‘rocklike’ in firmness and stability, with which to measure the conduct of all his creatures.—De 32:4; Job 34:10; Ps 92:15; Eze 18:25-31; 33:17-20.
so you see Fabian, your attempt to measure righteousness by your standards are futile, because your standards are not Gods standards, your will is not Gods will and your righteousness is not Gods righteousness. Until you can reconcile this difference, you have no recourse to arguing against the Christians, because as you can see from the definition, you have completely different standards by which you are evaluating their standards of righteousness.
05 Feb 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou give another definision of "righteousness". Are you sure that OP has the same definition as you use? I'm not.
Righteousness
The Hebrew tsedheq and tsedhaqah as well as the Greek dikaiosyne have the thought of “rectitude,” “uprightness,” indicating a standard or norm determining what is upright. “Righteousness” is frequently used in connection with a judge, or with judgment, giving the term a somewhat legal flavor (hence, the original-language terms are a ...[text shortened]... ave completely different standards by which you are evaluating their standards of righteousness.
Further down you give a notion of god. And I ask you which god? Krishna? You see, the christian god is denied by the majority of the people in the world. Most of the people of this earth have another faith than you have. JW is a yet very small fraction of these. So your faith of something is probably wrong, if it comes to a vote.
This is my point all along this thread. Everyone has a faith. Does this mean that everyone has righteousness?
bin Ladins faith is very stron. Does this mean that he is more righteous than others?
When you refer to the JW bible, as it was the only scripture in the world, I would like to ask you: What does the holy quaran say about the matter? More people are muslim than JWers, so their opinion in the amtter are far mor important than the isolated group of JWers.