noah's ark

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I see the same things you do, that doesn't mean we view them the same way.

I asked, where is god. Do you want me to guess what you mean when you answer by pointing out we both see the world? The world is god?

Look, your view is based on faith, which is indoctrinated and has no necessary cohesion with reality. You want to explore and defend your view, but you evade questions! This should be a red flag for you.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
Before the fall God and man walked together. Even after the fall God and Moses spent a lot of time together.

How would you know? You weren't there, right?

Originally posted by @apathist
I asked, where is god. Do you want me to guess what you mean when you answer by pointing out we both see the world? The world is god?

Look, your view is based on faith, which is indoctrinated and has no necessary cohesion with reality. You want to explore and defend your view, but you evade questions! This should be a red flag for you.

When I view the universe I see God in it. I don't believe it sprang up from nothing without a plan, purpose, and design. I also think God is the most incredible artist ever when looking at it. God created the universe He isn't the universe.

Also when I view love between people it confirms in me that is how we should be with everyone. Not this hateful stuff we do to one another.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I agree it wasn't so how would they know? Before the fall God and man walked together. Even after the fall God and Moses spent a lot of time together. Since Moses wrote it as God was sharing it was in my opinion a topic of discussion. Just like all the other things Moses wrote about.

The more remote in time, the more likely it is that errors have crept in (your words).

Dates for Moses are uncertain, ranging from: 1393-1273 BCE (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm) to 1525-1405 BCE (http://www.graspinggod.com/life-of-moses.html).

Deuteronomy is considered by Torah scholars to have been written in the 6th or 7th c. BCE. The Pentateuch was completed in written from between 600 BCE and 400 BCE. That represents a gap ranging from 570 years (assuming a late date for Moses and an early date for Deuteronomy), to a thousand years (assuming an early date for Moses and a late date for the Pentateuch).

However, no complete text exists from that time.

The Dead Sea scrolls comprise the second oldest manuscript fragments of works later included in the Hebrew Bible canon, along with deuterocanonical and extra-biblical manuscripts which preserve evidence of the diversity of religious thought in late Second Temple Judaism.

Biblical texts older than the Dead Sea Scrolls have been discovered only in two silver scroll-shaped amulets containing portions of the Priestly Blessing from the Book of Numbers, excavated in Jerusalem at Ketef Hinnom and dated c. 600 BCE.

The third-oldest surviving known piece of the Torah consists of a portion of Leviticus found in the Ein Gedi synagogue, burnt in the 6th century A.D. and analyzed in 2015. Research has dated it palaeographically to the 1st or 2nd century A.D., and using the carbon 14 method to sometime between the 2nd and 4th centuries A.D. But you probably don't believe that carbon 14 dating is accurate, so we'll dismiss this one.

One of the oldest complete copies of the OT is the Codex Vaticanus, a Greek copy of the entire Old Testament and most of the New Testament. It was produced between the years 325 and 350 A.D.

Possibly the oldest complete Torah dates from 1155 A.D. (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-versions-and-translations/a-sefer-torah-in-the-bologna-library-may-be-the-oldest-known-torah-scroll/). Older fragments, the Aleppo and Leningrad Codices, exist from 200 years prior to that.

"…like all the other things Moses wrote about," you claim. We do not know that Moses wrote anything at all. Writings were attributed to him hundreds of years later, but even those have disappeared. From Moses to writing anything down at all is a gap of several hundred years, and then there is another gap from the original texts to the oldest extant copies of several hundred more years.

When attempting to verify historical facts, an unbroken chain of custody is the gold standard. There is no unbroken chain of custody for any document which can be directly attributed to Moses. We don't even know for sure when he lived, but it was in any case over 3,200 years ago. The more remote in time, the more likely errors have crept in.

Imagine that all physical evidence of JFK's life and death were lost. No Lincoln Continental car, no rifle, no bullets, no photographs of JFK or Jackie or Lee Harvey Oswald, no forensic analysis of the body, no Zapruder film, no FBI files, nothing tangible. Imagine that 500 years later, fragments of newspaper reports surfaced, buried in a jar. And then, 500 years after that, a putative biography appeared, purporting to be the true account of JFK's life and death. A thousand-year gap from the man to the book. How much credibility would that have, eh?

Many people have claimed that God spoke to them. Mohammed. Mary Baker Eddy. Joe Smith. George W. Bush. For all we know, God speaks to Chaney3 too. We cannot verify that that really happens even now, much less that it happened 3,200 years ago.

Originally posted by @moonbus
The more remote in time, the more likely it is that errors have crept in (your words).

Dates for Moses are uncertain, ranging from: 1393-1273 BCE (http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm) to 1525-1405 BCE (http://www.graspinggod.com/life-of-moses.html).

Deuteronomy is considered by Torah scholars to have been written in th ...[text shortened]... We cannot verify that that really happens even now, much less that it happened 3,200 years ago.

I acknowledge it is faith on my part, it is the distant past and as such all the issues that do
arise, arise. You are right to bring it up, my answer is going to be faith. Even if it were
passed down from Adam, it would have been a main topic to those guys back then, since
according to scripture all of them lived a long time together, without Wi-Fi so they wouldn't
be sitting around the dinner table looking at their phones.

Do you acknowledge however that seeing a fossil doesn't mean evolution is true?

Originally posted by @proper-knob
You said 'scientific facts are not reality', i've clearly demonstrated they can be.

How's that dinosaur constructed from one or two bones find going?

Well I looked, cannot find it. I have not spent a lot of time, looking but I would have thought
I'd found what it was I was thinking about by now.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
[b]When I view the universe I see God in it. I don't believe it sprang up from nothing without a plan, purpose, and design. I also think God is the most incredible artist ever when looking at it. God created the universe He isn't the universe.

If , as many believe, there was a time when GOD existed and nothing else existed then it is logical to conclude that all that exists is merely an expansion of GOD.
(If GOD exists)

Originally posted by @caissad4
If , as many believe, there was a time when GOD existed and nothing else existed then it is logical to conclude that all that exists is merely an expansion of GOD.
(If GOD exists)

God isn't the universe He created it, and according to scripture this one will be replaced.

Originally posted by @kellyjay
God isn't the universe He created it, and according to scripture this one will be replaced.

If, as many believe, there was a time when GOD existed and nothing else, it is logical to assume that the universe is merely an expansion of God. (If GOD exists)

Originally posted by @kellyjay
I acknowledge it is faith on my part, it is the distant past and as such all the issues that do
arise, arise. You are right to bring it up ...

Do you acknowledge however that seeing a fossil doesn't mean evolution is true?

Oh yes, I quite agree that one fossil by itself proves nothing. It is the preponderance of evidence that matters.