09 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Badwater=============================
The agenda of Matthew has nothing to do with what jaywill is labeling "the kingdom".
The other Gospels state their intentions more or less at the beginning of their writings. Matthew, however, states his intention at the end:
[quote] Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. When they saw him, they wor s the specifics of what it takes to be a disciple.
The kingdom nonsense is exactly that.
The agenda of Matthew has nothing to do with what jaywill is labeling "the kingdom".
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Sure the kingdom of the heavens is very central to the book of Matthew.
John the Baptist mentioned it in preparation to Christ coming. And it is also the first thing Jesus mentioned in the book.
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The other Gospels state their intentions more or less at the beginning of their writings. Matthew, however, states his intention at the end:
Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. When they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’
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You missed it. The kingdom is implied in the words all authority has been given unto Me in heaven and on earth.
That means He has been established as a king with all reigning authority.
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Matthew's agenda is that he's interested in his readers becoming disciples of Jesus. That's his thrust through the entire witness. The Sermon on the Mount is the specifics of what it takes to be a disciple.
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I agree with the latter statement completely. The normal disciples should live by the principles laid out in chapters 5 - 7.
But those teachings are all about living in the kingdom, living under the authority of God's governmental administration.
And the church and the kingdom are very closely linked together in chapters 16:
" ... I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, ..." (Matt. 16:18b,19a)
Though the word kingdom is not used in the so called "Great Commission" passage of Matthew 28:18 all authority being given by God into the hands of the resurrected Son of God is also and indication that He is the King of God's kingdom.
And to disciple all the nations baptizing them into the name of the Father-Son-Holy Spirit is itself FOR the establishing and spreading of the kingdom of the heavens on the earth.
Many of the parables are about what the kingdom of the heavens is like. And in Matthew 25:31-46 we see a prophecy of the King on the throne of His glory judging the remaining nations after His second coming.
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09 Jan 10
When Jesus is saying "The kingdom of heaven is like...." he is saying "This is how God behaves." He is not talking about a physical, unknowable place to mortals.
jaywill's fixation on the "kingdom" is errant, and serves no useful perspective for the modern believer. Those believers that wish to exist in the modern reality, that is.
09 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillYou gave an explanation as to how Jesus could not know those who continue to commit sin, yet give them eternal life. I found your explanation somewhat cryptic and likely incoherent, so I asked for an elaboration. Your explanation really doesn't make sense especially if you consider what Jesus actually says in John 10:27-28. Also your explanation about Jesus having two modes of "knowing" was never explained by Him insofar as I know. If Jesus had these two modes and they were important, why didn't He explicitly say so? Do you just assume that He was that bad of a teacher.
When you assume that you can persistently pepper another poster with questions, yet remain silent on questions put to [b]you, do you think that cultivates an attitude of respect in others ?
When I ask you to state your position on the resurrection and you respond with silence while holding my feet to the fire with your questions, do you think surrection from the dead is a demonstration of the power of eternal life, obviously.[/b]
As I said earlier:
"In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. To those who HEAR His voice and FOLLOW Him. They HEAR His commands and FOLLOW them. Not that they 'profess belief', but HEAR and FOLLOW."
His "sheep" are those who hear and follow His commands. These are the ones He knows and gives eternal life to. If they hear and follow His commands, He IS their Lord.
So far as I recall, my questions to you have been directly related to the issue we have been discussing which is what did Jesus teach is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation". Your question about my position on Jesus being raised from the dead is not relevant to the issue. It's a red herring. As was your question about Peter for that matter, but I answered it anyway.
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10 Jan 10
Originally posted by jaywillClearly I disagree with you on your interpretation and symbolism.
[b]=============================
The agenda of Matthew has nothing to do with what jaywill is labeling "the kingdom".
===============================
Sure the kingdom of the heavens is very central to the book of Matthew.
John the Baptist mentioned it in preparation to Christ coming. And it is also the first thing Jesus mentioned in the b ...[text shortened]... ing on the throne of His glory judging the remaining nations after His second coming.[/b]
10 Jan 10
Originally posted by BadwaterI didn't think I got into much symbolism yet?
Clearly I disagree with you on your interpretation and symbolism.
Look, Bible interpretation is not always a matter of this has to be right and this has to be wrong.
If you do not see the matter of the kingdom of the heavens in its various emphasises, it is OK.
Perhaps you just notice something else. You seem to want to hold the last passage of Matthew as the "agenda" of Matthew.
I have no real problem with that. In fact it would be good to read through Matthew again with that in mind.
10 Jan 10
5 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne======================================
You gave an explanation as to how Jesus could not know those who continue to commit sin, yet give them eternal life. I found your explanation somewhat cryptic and likely incoherent, so I asked for an elaboration. Your explanation really doesn't make sense especially if you consider what Jesus actually says in John 10:27-28. Also your explanation about Jes ng. As was your question about Peter for that matter, but I answered it anyway.
As I said earlier:
"In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. To those who HEAR His voice and FOLLOW Him. They HEAR His commands and FOLLOW them. Not that they 'profess belief', but HEAR and FOLLOW."
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In the end of the Gospel of John Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep and take care of His lambs. In effect He urged Peter to shepherd and feed His disciples (John 21:15-18)
I am afraid that your attitude is that if the sheep are hungry they must have been forsaken by Jesus and are going to perish. I mean, if they really followed Jesus they should not be hungry?
The need to shepherd the sheep, feed the sheep, and feed the lambs all indicate that there is a great deal of care that has to take place for the growth and development of the sheep.
If there is the need for shepherding it must be that the sheep do not always obey the shepherd. Frankly, sometimes a sheep may not hear the Shepherd too well.
The great need for shepherding of the sheep shows that following the Shepherd is a process one grows, matures, and develops into under great care. Your attitude is "They're not following. Cut em off!! They don't any longer have eternal life."
John 10 also says that te hireling does not care for the sheep as the Good Sherpherd does. The hireling will allow the wolf to come and scatter and snatch the sheep (v.12)
For a wolf to be able to scatter and snatch the sheep seems to indicate that the church should not expect there will never be any trials. These include "sheep" backslidding, going back to the world, getting scattered.
But they are still His sheep. And He gives to them eternal life. The servant who was unforgiving in Matthew 18:22-34 is an example of a sheep who got scattered. When it comes time for the Lord to reward His servants, this one was turned over to the torturers until he should learn a lesson.
So he was a sheep who got into trouble in his sheep life in the church age. He is disciplined at the second coming. But it is termporary. And he does not lose the gift of eternal life.
These pictures of sheep, servants, virgins with lamps, laborers, etc. are all needed to convey the manifold blessings and responsibilites of the Christians to Christ. And we have to consider them all together.
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His "sheep" are those who hear and follow His commands. These are the ones He knows and gives eternal life to. If they hear and follow His commands, He IS their Lord.
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So if they miss one command they perish ?
So if they miss two commands they perish?
So if they disobey in their life three commands then they perish?
I have missed many commandments of the Lord. I may miss some today.
Brother Peter should have perished then also. This hard headed and opinionated sheep miss the Lord's command a few times.
But wait, Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep. But if Peter keeps blowing it then he is to perish and he's the last person Jesus should ask three times to feed His sheep.
You're playing with words to arrive at an absolutism which is foolish. You cannot fight heresy with another heresy. If you are concerned about sloppy Christians who seem to have no regard for righteous living, the remedy is not to invent a heresy to combat that.
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So far as I recall, my questions to you have been directly related to the issue we have been discussing which is what did Jesus teach is required for "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation".
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You are fond of linking these three matters together in this manner "eternal life" / "heaven" / "salvation"
Why do you do that ? Are you suggesting that in the New Testament these words are always exactly interchangeable ?
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Your question about my position on Jesus being raised from the dead is not relevant to the issue. It's a red herring. As was your question about Peter for that matter, but I answered it anyway.
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Resurrection and eternal life are very closely related. Jesus spoke and spoke about eternal life. Then there was the need to demonstrate this indestructible eternal life. And resurrection served that purpose.
Saying resurrection in teaching or in fact is not relevant to the New Testament is, I think, a "doctrine of demons."
Unlike some unversalist type teachers you do not have the courage to come out and say that you do not believe Jesus rose.
The impression it leaves is of a wolf in sheep's clothing, purporting to be such a faithful teacher of the teachings of Jesus but secretly opposing them to the root.
It also explains why you cannot appreciate Jesus telling the disciples that it was possible with God to get the camel through the eye of the needle and the rich man into the kingdom of God.
10 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillWhy do you keep evading the issue?
[b]======================================
As I said earlier:
"In John 10:27-28 Jesus says He gives eternal life to those He KNOWS. To those who HEAR His voice and FOLLOW Him. They HEAR His commands and FOLLOW them. Not that they 'profess belief', but HEAR and FOLLOW."
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In the end of the Gospel of Joh h the eye of the needle and the rich man into the kingdom of God.[/b]
You made the assertion that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but didn't "know as Lord". The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Your wild speculation about it being about those he "knew as savior" doesn't hold water.
10 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf you don't want to discuss the issues then why not just say so? Your "stalker" mantra is just an excuse to avoid serious debate (without loaded dice).
KM, I call you a "stalker" because that's what you are. I've repeatedly asked you not to address my posts and post about me, but you continue to do it in pursuit of your vendetta. In fact, it seems a very high percentage (perhaps the majority) of your posts are in this pursuit. That you still attempt to deny it is ludicrous. And once again I can hardly ma ...[text shortened]... or a couple of years now shows just what a warped and twisted individual you are.
If you continue to stalk Jesus and the Gospels with your lies and distortions of the truth then I will continue to defend the truth and fight your lies. Someone has to call you out and it seems like I get to be the one on your ignore list for calling a spade a spade. Answer the issues and debate the truth in an adult way instead of crying foul all the time. Honestly it's pathetic that you are unable to see how this whole thing is just your own rationalisation aqnd avoidance technique. You have no answer to Matt6:9 so why don't you just admit it.
Jesus clearly teaches his followers that they are to confess sin daily to God in Matt 6:9 . The fact that he does so throws a complete spanner in the works of your theology. You either completely ignore this or come up with some cobbled together rationalisation about it. Jesus clearly and explictly teaches his followers to come before God in daily confession. This means that he accepted the idea that those who followed Him were not necessarily going to be without any sin and would need to pray in this way.
One could argue that Jesus did not intend the Lord's Prayer to be the way everyone should pray and that there was another way of praying for those people who were perfect and never sinned. However , since he offers no other way of praying this idea is bunkum.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
[For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.]
Amen.
Either you think Jesus didn't say what he said in Matt 6:9 or you just ignore his words and teachings because they conflict with your own rigid interpretation.
Whether I am a "stalker" or not is irrelevant because the truth stands in it's own right.
You have no authentic answer to it.
10 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhy do you keep evading the issue?
Why do you keep evading the issue?
You made the assertion that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but didn't "know as Lord". The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Your wild speculation about it being about those he "knew as savior" doesn't hold water.
----------ToO-----------------
DITTO......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
10 Jan 10
Originally posted by knightmeisterIf you don't want to discuss the issues then why not just say so?
If you don't want to discuss the issues then why not just say so? Your "stalker" mantra is just an excuse to avoid serious debate (without loaded dice).
If you continue to stalk Jesus and the Gospels with your lies and distortions of the truth then I will continue to defend the truth and fight your lies. Someone has to call you out and it seems lik ...[text shortened]... nt because the truth stands in it's own right.
You have no authentic answer to it.
I have no intention of trying to discuss anything with a nutter like you as I've told you countless times. That you make such a statement is yet another example of your dishonesty. You have repeatedly and purposely misrepresented me and my position stopping at nothing, including lying repeatedly in order to carry out your vendetta.
That you try to present yourself as wanting to have an honest discussion is yet another example of your dishonesty. As I've told you countless times, it is not possible to have an honest discussion with some with a complete lack of integrity as yourself.
In case you're still too dim to comprehend what I'm saying:
"I have no intention of trying to discuss anything with a nutter like you."
What part of that don't you understand?
11 Jan 10
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneConcerning the "sheep" in John 10:27 "they shall by no means perish forever" (v.28) .
Why do you keep evading the issue?
You made the assertion that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but didn't "know as Lord". The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Your wild speculation about it being about those he "knew as savior" doesn't hold water.
This means that they shall by no means perish forever. Now what this means is "they shall by no means perish forever.".
And I think the best interpretation of "they shall by no means perish forever" is that they [His sheep] shall by no means perish forever.
11 Jan 10
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillJaywill, read my post again. In fact reread my last few posts. Clearly I am not questioning if they will never perish. What I am questioning, as I'm sure you are quite aware, is YOUR ASSERTION that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but didn't "know as Lord".
Concerning the [b]"sheep" in John 10:27 "they shall by no means perish forever" (v.28) .
This means that they shall by no means perish forever. Now what this means is "they shall by no means perish forever.".
And I think the best interpretation of "they shall by no means perish forever" is that they [His sheep] shall by no means perish forever.[/b]
The fact is that Jesus describes His sheep as those who HEAR and FOLLOW Him. Clearly He is LORD to those that He would give eternal life. Not "savior" but LORD.
John 10:27-28
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Jesus does not know those who continue to sin. They do not follow Jesus. Jesus does not know them. They will not be given eternal life.
Matthew 7:23
"Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'"
11 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==========================
Jaywill, read my post again. In fact reread my last few posts. Clearly I am not questioning if they will never perish. What I am questioning, as I'm sure you are quite aware, is [b]YOUR ASSERTION that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but didn't "know as Lord".
...[text shortened]...
"Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'"[/b]
Jaywill, read my post again. In fact reread my last few posts. Clearly I am not questioning if they will never perish. What I am questioning, as I'm sure you are quite aware, is YOUR ASSERTION that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but didn't "know as Lord".
==================================
I don't need to read your post again. I already conceded that the matter of He knew them as "Savior" in Matthew 7:22,23 and not as what they called Him "Lord" in Matthew 7:22,23 may not be the best explanation. That was not an expounding of John 10. That was a reason I gave for this passage:
"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but He who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens.
Many will ay to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power?
And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matthew 7:21-23)
This passage is about entering into the kingdom of the heavens. It is about enjoying the manifestation of the kingdom of the heavens between the second coming of Christ and the end of the 1,000 millennial kingdom. Not all Christians will enjoy this reward. Some of the servants of the Lord will be disciplined, some will be cast in outer darkness.
We do not know all the details of how Christ will deal with defeated believers. I am sure that the lattitude is large. I am sure that the scope is broad in possibilities of things He might do to perfect His children:
The book of Hebrews reminds the disciples that as God's sons He will do things to perfect us:
"It is for discipline that you endure; God learls with you as with sons. For what son is there whom the ather does not discipline?
But if you are without discipline, or which all sons have become partakers, then you are illegetimate and not sons.
Furtherore we have had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners and we repected them; shall we nmot much more be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live.
For they discipline for a few days as it seemed good to them; but He, for what is profitable that we may partake of His holiness." (Hebrews 12:7-10)
The Father begets sons. Once the sons have been begotten of the Father they cannot become NOT His sons. You cannot become NOT your earthly father's son no matter what.
You may not be on cooperative terms with your father for a time. That still does not make his life go out of you. You are still his father. And the sons of God are still His sons even if the Father should dicsipline them.
Some Christians think that all such discipline can only be upon the Christian in the church age before the second coming. But careful reading of the NT shows that even after the second coming of Christ Christ and His Father may still perfect and discipline the sons of God.
And example of one such son disciplined is the unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:23-35. Another example are those includes lawless Christian workers who may have done works of power, demon casting in the Lord's name, but were not living in the reality of the kingdom of the heavens.
When the manifestation of the kingdom comes they will not be rewarded. And some of them Jesus will punish. Such punishment will happen during the 1,000 millennial kingdom. These reckless Christian workers will not perish. Because while they are wreckless as servants they are sheep which followed Christ into the new covenant.
The sheep will never perish forever. The servant may be rewarded or punished. For Jesus to say that He never knew these wreckless servants does not mean they are not eternally saved.
If that had been the case then the unforgiving servant would have been turned over to the punisher forever. He was not. He was turned over UNTIL a terminating condition.
So once believing into Jesus a man or woman will never perish forever.
That is all the time I have this morning.
11 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus does not know those who continue to sin. They do not follow Jesus. Jesus does not know them. They will not be given eternal life.
Jaywill, read my post again. In fact reread my last few posts. Clearly I am not questioning if they will never perish. What I am questioning, as I'm sure you are quite aware, is [b]YOUR ASSERTION that in John 10:27 when Jesus was speaking of those He would give eternal life, He was speaking of those He "knew as savoir", but didn't "know as Lord".
...[text shortened]...
"Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'"[/b]
-----------------------ToOne------------------------------------------
An interesting statement Jesus clearly teaches his followers that they are to confess sin daily to God in Matt 6:9 . The fact that he does so throws a complete spanner in the works of your idea. Jesus clearly and explictly teaches his followers to come before God in daily confession. This means that he accepted the idea that those who followed Him were not necessarily going to be without any sin and would need to pray in this way.
One could argue that Jesus did not intend the Lord's Prayer to be the way everyone should pray and that there was another way of praying for those people who were perfect and never sinned. However , since he offers no other way of praying this idea is bunkum.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
[For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.]
Amen.
Either you think Jesus didn't say what he said in Matt 6:9 or you just ignore his words and teachings because they conflict with your own rigid interpretation.
You quote -
Matthew 7:23
"Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
...................but the problem is that you place your own interpretation of his words on to this and you think they explicitly state what they do not. Jesus is talking about a group of people who think that just by performing miracles and shouting Lord , Lord that they will be saved. But these people do not get Jesus and do not know him. They key factor is whether they KNEW him or not. They think that they can earn heaven by doing miraculous works. They can't . But in no way does Jesus say that this applies to all that call him Lord , and indeed it's important to remember that Peter (who sinned) called him Lord and committed himself to following Jesus and Jesus in no way dismissed him but made him the rock of his church.
Peter was less then perfect and when the time came turned his back on Jesus (which Jesus predicted) . Turning one's back on Jesus (despite still calling him Lord) is presumably a sin. Therefore , Jesus was accepting someone who he should not have done according to you???????????????????????
Seem a bit strange? Don't fit mate.
When are you going to realise that however hard you try and make your case watertight there's always a significant jigsaw piece that just cannot logically fit in as you please.
Calling me a stalker won't make it fit either........ 😀
11 Jan 10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI don't think that's what it's about at all. I think you are just using that as an excuse to not discuss a few things that threaten your position.
[b]If you don't want to discuss the issues then why not just say so?
I have no intention of trying to discuss anything with a nutter like you as I've told you countless times. That you make such a statement is yet another example of your dishonesty. You have repeatedly and purposely misrepresented me and my position stopping at nothing, including ...[text shortened]... to discuss anything with a nutter like you."
What part of that don't you understand?[/b]
The problem is that you judge my posts based on who is making them rather than the logic they contain. Until you come up with a reasonable answer to the problem of Matt 6:9 then why should anyone take you seriously? You don't have any answer other than stricking your fingers in your ears and shouting the stalker mantra.
You are the one who is taking Jesus's teachings selectively and turning them into something that they are not. Not only this , you are taking "sin" as your central theme but refusing to define what sin actually is in any real way. Nobody really knows if what you are proposing about Jesus is actually possible or achievable because you have not defined it. That's nuts!
Where are these sinless perfectly righteous people you keep on about? Are you one of them? Do they exist at all?
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Jesus clearly teaches his followers that they are to confess sin daily to God in Matt 6:9 . The fact that he does so throws a complete spanner in the works of your theology. You either completely ignore this or come up with some cobbled together rationalisation about it. Jesus clearly and explictly teaches his followers to come before God in daily confession. This means that he accepted the idea that those who followed Him were not necessarily going to be without any sin and would need to pray in this way.
One could argue that Jesus did not intend the Lord's Prayer to be the way everyone should pray and that there was another way of praying for those people who were perfect and never sinned. However , since he offers no other way of praying this idea is bunkum.
Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
[For thine is the kingdom,
and the power, and the glory,
for ever and ever.]
Amen.
Either you think Jesus didn't say what he said in Matt 6:9 or you just ignore his words and teachings because they conflict with your own rigid interpretation