Obama: Servant of God

Originally posted by sonship
Did I mention you?
Did I write your name?

[b]Romans 13 is an important chapter for Christians.
Do you disagree ?[/b]

I agree it has importance.

Each man needs to act according to his conscience. We do what we feel compelled to do. God will sort it all out in the end.

For example, Christians that voted for the likes of Obama have no real qualms about abortion. If they did, they would be going against their conscience. More than likely, they have adopted the belief that the unborn are inconsequential and that God does not mind us snuffing out their lives.

The same can be said regarding issues like gay marriage. Those that don't view it as an ill of society will celebrate it.



The reason we have more freedoms today are because of men like the apostles and, Jesus himself, who defied the authorities of their day. Men continued this through others like Martin Luther, and Martin Luther King and even the Founding Fathers. If it had not been for them being contrary to the powers that be, the world would be a much darker place.

Originally posted by whodey

I agree it has importance.
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Good then. Why not write something about the importance of Romans 13?


Each man needs to act according to his conscience. We do what we feel compelled to do. God will sort it all out in the end.
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That's right. My thread is mostly about brothers in Christ.
We should take heed to our conscience.

And if we do, I think when we sound like those damning the authorities over them, it kills our praying spirit. Try to talk that way for a few hours and see how much appetite you have for prayer.

I have to go ask the Lord for the cleansing of His precious blood to restore my communion with the Spirit when I speak about my boss or a government official that way.


For example, Christians that voted for the likes of Obama have no real qualms about abortion. If they did, they would be going against their conscience.

I think voting in the US is usually a matter of trying to choose the lesser of two evils. Most candidate represent a mixed bag of causes.

More than likely, they have adopted the belief that the unborn are inconsequential and that God does not mind us snuffing out their lives.
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You certainly can discuss that with brothers and sisters in the faith you think should hear that. And if they touch the Spirit of Christ in your fellowship with them you just may awaken them to see the matter differently.

Remember, the exhortation of First Timothy 2:1 that Paul desires that petitions, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men; on behalf of kings AND ALL WHO ARE IN HIGH POSITIONS.

Vote the ones you want in high positions.
Pray for whoever ascends to those positions --- effectively as you can.

The same can be said regarding issues like gay marriage. Those that don't view it as an ill of society will celebrate it.

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I don't think Paul was celebrating Nero.
I think he was writing the brothers that the authority of government is something ordained by God and in attitude we should not betray that.

I think that increases the Christian's influence to awaken the consciences of others rather than decreases it.

I think that if you feed people Jesus, feed people Jesus, feed people Jesus more light will begin to shine in their own hearts to turn away from what displeases God to living Christ.

" I desire therefore that men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and reasoning."

When I find myself consumed with wrath and reasoning I know that first I must come to the Lord Jesus, no matter what the issue is. I must first find peace in Him. I have to have the peace of Christ arbitrating in my heart.

One of the works of the flesh Paul mentions is clamor (Eph. 4:31) . .

Synonyms for this word clamor are

Agitation
Uproar
Ruckus
Tumult
Outcry
Din
Discord
Turmoil
Vociferation
Pandemonium

More slang like words which can mean clamor are -

Hurly-Burly
Hubba-hubba
To-do
Hullaballoo
Hassle

It draws the picture of something like an unruly soccer crowd.
It brings to mind a shouting protest.

Paul writes:

" Let all bitterness and anger and wrath and CLAMOR and evil speaking be removed from you, with all malice." (Eph. 4:31)

We are a more effective Christian witness all around if our speech is without these defects of the old man and people touch the that proper man in our spirit - the Lord Jesus.

By praying honestly but without wrath and reasoning God will show us how and what to say in our sharing the truth. We can learn to taste spiritual life and spiritual death.

We do not want to abort physically or abort spiritually. Physical life is precious and so is spiritual life. What about the spiritual life of this one I speak to?

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I believe we should be "subject" to the powers that be because as the Bible says they are ordained of God, but when the "powers that be" would cause one to break the law of God, then I don't believe we are subject to that.
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I agree. And I included Paul's word in chapter ...[text shortened]... compliant yet respectful civil disobedience of say, Daniel and the three Hebrew boys in Babylon.[/b]

🙂

Originally posted by sonship
[b]I agree it has importance.
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Good then. Why not write something about the importance of Romans 13?


Each man needs to act according to his conscience. We do what we feel compelled to do. God will sort it all out in the end.
------------------------------------------------------------ ...[text shortened]... life is precious and so is spiritual life. What about the spiritual life of this one I speak to?[/b]

After reading your posts sonship I am getting a sense of something more than just about the outward manifestations of obedience to God and country.

I think you're saying more about the inner spiritual qualities of a mature Christian than merely the outward appearance of civil obedience.

Considering the fact that the believer is being transformed into the image of Christ from the inside out, it is more important about how we conduct ourselves than what it is we're doing. In other words, let what we do be a reflection of who we are in Christ.

Originally posted by sonship

[b]Caesar Nero, who latter had Paul beheaded, was the Emperor of Rome at the time these words were written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit Christ's apostle wrote this during the reign of Nero.

Nero, as some of you may know, was not an advocate of the Religious Right as far as Ch ...[text shortened]... th insubordination and contempt about their nation's leader, even if that leader should be Nero.[/b]

God gave the people of Israel a King the the other nations only because that is what they wanted. We the people of the United States of American vote for the leader we want. And regardless if we choose wisely or not we get what we want. If we continue to choose wrong, why must all of us just accept this idea that God was the one that made the choice for us?

Why must we be so stupid to think it was all God's doing when it was us that allowed it to happen in the same manner the Germans allowed Hitler to rule over them.

We need to wake up and see it was our mistake, not God's.

Originally posted by sonship
Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Christian theologian in Germany during the Third Reich. He was deeply involved in a plot to have Adolf Hitler Assassinated.

If you are a Christian you may wonder WHY did God not cause his plot to be successful? Why did not God honor his theological incentive to have a man like Hitler killed?

I do not claim to have ...[text shortened]... All I know is that for His own reasons a Christian theologian's plot to kill Hitler were foiled.

I am sure you have heard of Satan.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I suppose you then think that Martin Luther King was wrong for defying the powers that be during his day. I don't.
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In Exodus 3 we see that the Egyptian midwives disobeyed Pharoah's orders to have the Hebrew boys killed at birth. It says that they feared God. And it says God r ...[text shortened]... nifesting the exact same contempt for those over him as most worldly unbelievers daily manifest.[/b]

The Holy Bible indicates that most of the Kings of Israel and Judah were evil. Do you really believe God is the one that made them Kings? The Holy Bible says God was not for the idea of them having a King to rule over them. That is what the people wanted, not God.

They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.”

But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.

(1 Samuel 8:5-7 NIV)

Originally posted by twhitehead
And that is exactly what it was meant to be. You should know better than to quote factoids like that without double checking them.

I note that you have not stated where you got it from, nor admitted that it is false. Possibly worse than spreading falsehoods, is refusing to admit when you get something wrong.

He gets most of his teaching from a cult leader called Witness Lee.

Originally posted by sonship
[b]I agree it has importance.
-----------------------------------------

Good then. Why not write something about the importance of Romans 13?


Each man needs to act according to his conscience. We do what we feel compelled to do. God will sort it all out in the end.
------------------------------------------------------------ ...[text shortened]... life is precious and so is spiritual life. What about the spiritual life of this one I speak to?[/b]

It should be clear to everyone that Hitler was a Bad leader for Germany. I hope it is becoming clear that Obama has been a bad leader for America, even though he was given the Nobel Peace Prize. I hope we don't continue to make mistakes like this in choosing our leaders. We shouldn't blame God for our mistakes.

Originally posted by RJHinds
He gets most of his teaching from a cult leader called Witness Lee.

SLANDER

Originally posted by josephw

After reading your posts sonship I am getting a sense of something more than just about the outward manifestations of obedience to God and country.
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Of course something more than an outward display is meant. Of course so. This is the thirteenth chapter of the book of Romans.

Look how he ends the chapter. After speaking of the love that fulfills the law in verses 8-11 he writes this:

"And this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to be raised from sleep. (v.11)

That is a spiritual slumber, a drowsiness of living like the unbelievers in the world rather than as awakened Christians.

" ... for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."

This is preparation for the coming of the Lord, the King of kings.

"The night is far advanced, and the day has drawn near. Let us therefore put on weapons of light" (v.12)

His instruction is related to SPIRITUAL WARFARE . Through the 13th chapter he has been speaking of the weapons of light for doing battle in the spiritual realm.

"Let us walk becomingly as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in fornication and licentiousness, not in strife and jealousy." (v.13)

The Christian walk he has been speaking of of proper regard to authority, is a matter of living in the spiritual day, of avoiding the drunkeness of night living (spiritually speaking). Such sleepy night living as the worldly people do is in reveling, drunkenness, fornication, licentiousness, strife and jealousy.

This is all to be defeated in the spiritual battle for bringing the kingdom, for living the victorious church life.

"But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh" (v.14)

So concludes the chapter. Put on Christ or put on the Lord Jesus Christ means be transformed. It means let God conform us to the image of His Son.


I think you're saying more about the inner spiritual qualities of a mature Christian than merely the outward appearance of civil obedience.
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That's right.


Considering the fact that the believer is being transformed into the image of Christ from the inside out, it is more important about how we conduct ourselves than what it is we're doing. In other words, let what we do be a reflection of who we are in Christ.
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Exactly. And it is about spiritual warfare - "the weapons of light". We in the prevailing church life are bringing in the kingdom which will replace all of the fallen governments of the world.

His coming is spoken of in verse 11. So it is spiritual yet also practical in its relationship to the coming of Christ and His ruling over the earth.

We are VIPs. We need to see "what is the hope of [our] calling".

The Apostle Peter speaks also to human government and Christian life:

"Be subject to every human institution for the Lord's sake, whether to a king as being supreme or to governors as being sent by him for vengence on evildoers and praise of those who do good.

For so as is the will of God, that by doing good you would muzzle the ignorance of foolish men;

As free, and yet not having freedom as a covering for evil, but as slaves of God.

Honor all men, Love the brotherhood, Fear God. Honor the king." (1 Peter 2:14-17)

It comes short of saying "Vote for __________".

(The title of this thread was intentionally provocative)

Honor all men.
Do no use freedom as a cloak for your fleshy bad behavior.
Muzzle the slanders of those who hate Christians by living out Christ.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] After reading your posts sonship I am getting a sense of something more than just about the outward manifestations of obedience to God and country.
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Of course something more than an outward display is meant. Of course so. This is the thirteenth chapter of the book of ...[text shortened]... ing over the earth.

We are VIPs. We need to see "what is the hope of [our] calling".[/b]

Thanks sonship. As good an explanation of the passage as I've ever heard.

A question. The "kingdom", what part does the church play in it's administration and establishment? If the church is bound for heaven, and the kingdom is on earth, what is the church's relationship to it?

Originally posted by whodey
[b]I agree it has importance.

Each man needs to act according to his conscience. We do what we feel compelled to do. God will sort it all out in the end.

For example, Christians that voted for the likes of Obama have no real qualms about abortion. If they did, they would be going against their conscience. More than likely, they have adopted the belief ...[text shortened]... egarding issues like gay marriage. Those that don't view it as an ill of society will celebrate it.

The reason we have more freedoms today are because of men like the apostles and, Jesus himself, who defied the authorities of their day. Men continued this through others like Martin Luther, and Martin Luther King and even the Founding Fathers. If it had not been for them being contrary to the powers that be, the world would be a much darker place.
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While submission in attitude is absolute obedience is relative.
Obedience is conduct. And conduct may be disobedient yet with no spirit of rebellion.

Take Peter and John speaking to Jewish religious council -

"Whether it is right in the sight of God to hearken unto you rather than unto God, judge ye" (Acts 4:19)

Yes, in conduct they did not obey to stop preaching the Gospel. But no rebellious insubordination was in their words or attitude. Obedience to governing authority was not always the case with God's people.

The Christian's inability to obey may still be done in an attitude of submission. The people of God in OT and NT may not obey. It is not done with shoutings and quarrels but in a spirit of soft dissent and quietly.

We see examples in:

1.) The midwives and Moses' mother who disobeyed the decree of Pharoah. They preserved Moses alive and were called women of faith.

2.) The three friends of Daniel who refused to bow to the golden image set up by King Nebuchadnezzar. Though they disobeyed the order they did submit to the fire.

3.) Daniel disobeyed the decree not to pray. But he did submit to being put into the lion's den.

4.) Joseph took the baby Jesus and Mary the mother and fled to Egypt to avoid the child being killed by King Herod.

5.) Peter continued to preach the Gospel against the command of the ruling council. But he did allow himself to be taken to prison.

In these instances in the Bible we see inability to obey governing authority, yet without disrespect, ruckus, name calling, and loud protest.

Originally posted by sonship
The Apostle Peter speaks also to human government and Christian life:

[quote] [b] "Be subject to every human institution for the Lord's sake, whether to a king as being supreme or to governors as being sent by him for vengence on evildoers and praise of those who do good.

For so as is the will of God, that by doing good you would muzzle the ignoranc ...[text shortened]... r fleshy bad behavior.
Muzzle the slanders of those who hate Christians by living out Christ.

I understand that we can't just ignore paying taxes and obeying laws passed by our government without expecting a bad result. However, I don't accept that every leader over us is a direct appointment from God. We should speak out against the evils of the leaders just like the prophets of old did.