Occam's Razor

Originally posted by josephw
Magic is an illusion.

Creation, if it is real, wasn't by magic.


[b]"It is possible to create a theoretical framework for the existence of the universe..."

I know. That's what everybody is doing. I'm interested in fact, not theory. Truth, not fiction.[/b]

Magic is an illusion.
No, that's not what magic is. Some people perform illusions and call them magic, that does not make magic an illusion. Magic is defined as any act or art invoking supernatural powers.

Creation, if it is real, wasn't by magic.
What? He did it without using supernatural powers?

I'm interested in fact, not theory. Truth, not fiction.
There are no verifiable facts relating to the creation of the universe, only differing theories. You choose to believe a theory which involves magic (or supernatural powers, if you still don't like that term) and which appears to be based solely on some stories that were written two thousand years ago, despite the fact that we are now able to construct simpler theories which are based in empirical evidence collected in a scientific manner over the last few decades.

Originally posted by josephw
I know that you are not making any sense. 🙂

Please explain to me how you can believe on the one hand that the Bible is the only source for the knowledge of God, and then say it is unreliable.

Of exactly the same reason that the only source of Hobbits is the Ring-trilogy. And that is not the slightest reliable as a source of science. Same goes for the bible.

And I know that you don't make any sense either 🙂

We both know that we have different opinions regarding religion. That's why I try to define religious truths and scientific truths as different truths. I don't mind you believe in your god, and I can respect that. And I hope you don't mind that I don't accept your god as The God, and that you can respect that.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
[b]Magic is an illusion.
No, that's not what magic is. Some people perform illusions and call them magic, that does not make magic an illusion. Magic is defined as any act or art invoking supernatural powers.

Creation, if it is real, wasn't by magic.
What? He did it without using supernatural powers?

I'm interested in fact, n ...[text shortened]... are based in empirical evidence collected in a scientific manner over the last few decades.

They say that he that defines the terms wins the argument.

Magic doesn't exist. No one has "supernatural" powers.

Some have extraordinary skills and talents and can create an illusion.

But no one has the power to create anything. We can use what already exists to invent something new, but we cannot make something from nothing.

So how did the universe come into existence?

Originally posted by josephw
They say that he that defines the terms wins the argument.

Magic doesn't exist. No one has "supernatural" powers.

Some have extraordinary skills and talents and can create an illusion.

But no one has the power to create anything. We can use what already exists to invent something new, but we cannot make something from nothing.

So how did the universe come into existence?

Hey, it's not my definition. And how do you know that magic doesn't exist? Can you prove that nobody has supernatural powers? No, of course you can't, likewise nobody can prove that there is no god.

But no one has the power to create anything. We can use what already exists to invent something new, but we cannot make something from nothing.
Currently, our technology does not permit that, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible. If you look up the Casimir Effect you will see that there is good reason to suspect that it may actually be possible to create something from nothing.

So how did the universe come into existence?
I don't pretend to know, unlike some people. I have however read many different theories, and consequently it seems likely to me that it didn't involve magic.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Hey, it's not my definition. And how do you know that magic doesn't exist? Can you prove that nobody has supernatural powers? No, of course you can't, likewise nobody can prove that there is no god.

[b]But no one has the power to create anything. We can use what already exists to invent something new, but we cannot make something from nothing.[ different theories, and consequently it seems likely to me that it didn't involve magic.

"Can you prove that nobody has supernatural powers?"

If there was a person that had such powers we would all know about it.


So you've read many different theories about the origin of the universe, and you've learned so much that you don't know what is true?

Perhaps you haven't learned enough of the right stuff.

Originally posted by josephw
"Can you prove that nobody has supernatural powers?"

If there was a person that had such powers we would all know about it.


So you've read many different theories about the origin of the universe, and you've learned so much that you don't know what is true?

Perhaps you haven't learned enough of the right stuff.

If there was a person that had such powers we would all know about it.
Is that your best argument?! What if they didn't want us all to know about it? Reckon they might use their supernatural powers to prevent that state of affairs?

So you've read many different theories about the origin of the universe, and you've learned so much that you don't know what is true?
That's right. Nobody knows. If someone tells you they do know, you can bet your bottom dollar they're talking bo**ocks.

Perhaps you haven't learned enough of the right stuff.
Well, in my defence, that's only because the 'right stuff' hasn't been published yet.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
[b]If there was a person that had such powers we would all know about it.
Is that your best argument?! What if they didn't want us all to know about it? Reckon they might use their supernatural powers to prevent that state of affairs?

So you've read many different theories about the origin of the universe, and you've learned so much that ...[text shortened]... Well, in my defence, that's only because the 'right stuff' hasn't been published yet.

"Well, in my defence, that's only because the 'right stuff' hasn't been published yet."

Well, I hope it gets published before you die. That way you can go to your grave with peace of mind.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"Well, in my defence, that's only because the 'right stuff' hasn't been published yet."

Well, I hope it gets published before you die. That way you can go to your grave with peace of mind.[/b]

I personally think it unlikely that we will divine beyond doubt the mechanism of the creation of the universe in my lifetime, but I hardly think that that will detract from my peace of mind, although I appreciate the thought, thank you.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I personally think it unlikely that we will divine beyond doubt the mechanism of the creation of the universe in my lifetime, but I hardly think that that will detract from my peace of mind, although I appreciate the thought, thank you.

Your welcome.

But wouldn't having assurance of eternal life be the ultimate peace of mind?

Originally posted by josephw
Your welcome.

But wouldn't having assurance of eternal life be the ultimate peace of mind?

No, absolutely not. Although belief in such would make it easier to accept the passing of loved ones, I'm sure.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
No, absolutely not. Although belief in such would make it easier to accept the passing of loved ones, I'm sure.

"No, absolutely not."

Why not?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"No, absolutely not."

Why not?[/b]

I'm entirely comfortable with the concept of having my consciousness extinguished when I die. If it isn't, well, that'll be interesting (to a point however it could get old pretty quick if it goes on forever), but if it is, well, I won't be regretting it, will I?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
No, absolutely not. Although belief in such would make it easier to accept the passing of loved ones, I'm sure.

Not if you believe in Hell.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I'm entirely comfortable with the concept of having my consciousness extinguished when I die. If it isn't, well, that'll be interesting (to a point however it could get old pretty quick if it goes on forever), but if it is, well, I won't be regretting it, will I?

You were created in the image and likeness of God.

But you don't believe that. You don't believe that because you are separated from the life of God by sin. Sin keeps you from believing the truth. If you die in your sin you will remain separated from the life of God forever.

Having said that, I don't want you to think I'm sitting here enjoying saying it. I'm not. I realise you have many reasons for not believing what the Bible says. But if after surveying the landscape of this life you still object, then you haven't yet exhausted all avenues of inquiry.

The human condition, our condition, begs for an explanation. Evolution doesn't come close. To accept our condition as a consequence of evolution is akin to an acceptance of endless misery for the foreseeable future.

Guilt is not a cultural phenomenon. It's universal. We're all the same. We all have like passions. We all have guilt for our own behaviors and choices. To deny that we live in a dieing world full of hatred, war, crime, insult, and injury, is to turn a blind eye on reality. The reality is we are going to die, and badly.

There's no escaping the truth. Nothing happens in a vacuum. We will give an account. Be sure of it. But we needn't have to give an account for sin if we trust that God has provided justice for sin.

The Bible gives the most reasonable explanation for everything we know. All other belief systems fail to tell the truth about our condition. They say that the first thing one feels when confronted with the truth is anger. Because the truth says we are sinners, every one, is why there is so much opposition to it. The opposition says you're just an animal and subject to nature and are not responsible for your behavior. That's too easy. The truth says you will come face to face with your maker. That's hard. It means giving an account for what you did. But sin says to you that you will not give an account, and that in the end you'll cease to exist. Sin deceives you into believing that you are your own and that God has no rights to you. The truth says you belong to God because He made you. All one needs to do is to take an honest look at themselves deep inside and face the truth.

It will be the hardest thing you'll ever try to do.

Originally posted by josephw
You were created in the image and likeness of God.

But you don't believe that. You don't believe that because you are separated from the life of God by sin. Sin keeps you from believing the truth. If you die in your sin you will remain separated from the life of God forever.

Having said that, I don't want you to think I'm sitting here enjoying saying i ...[text shortened]... side and face the truth.

It will be the hardest thing you'll ever try to do.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei

My sense, reason and intellect, granted me by god, if there is such a thing, leaves me unable to accept what you say as offering a true reflection of the nature of things. Note that I do not in any way deny the possibility of there being a god.