Just like with the "reject"-fiasco some time ago you seem more interested in semantics than content. A pity.
(Reply to Suzianne's post Simple. Because you're not even capable of being honest about your "certainty" even when directly asked about it. You weren't being asked about the probabilities, you were asked how certain are you. We've heard it time and again how solidly you are "absolutely certain" there is no god, and then when you're asked directly to quantify it, you waffle.)
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by PatNovakYou obviously forget that you were asked how certain you were, not what is the probability. So a negative cannot be proven, how does that affect how certain you are? Are you "absolutely certain" or not?
Anyone who says that they expect an answer of 7 on an issue like this, where a negative cannot be proven, is either being dishonest or is incredibly ignorant of logic.
Please understand, you are relatively new here, so I must clarify that mainly my beef is with the atheists here who have gone on record time and again saying exactly how "absolutely certain" they are that God does not exist. And then they claim some number less than 7. That doesn't sound "absolutely certain" to me. This is my only point here on this topic.
I'm not the one "incredibly ignorant of logic" here. Read the question again if you don't get my point.
Originally posted by Great King RatA typical atheist fall-back comment.
Just like with the "reject"-fiasco some time ago you seem more interested in semantics than content. A pity.
(Reply to Suzianne's post Simple. Because you're not even capable of being honest about your "certainty" even when directly asked about it. You weren't being asked about the probabilities, you were asked how certain are you. We've heard i ...[text shortened]... y certain" there is no god, and then when you're asked directly to quantify it, you waffle.)
Anyways, you are one of the ones who replied to the question with a 7.
Don't you feel that somehow a lot of other atheists here suddenly got "wishy-washy" on their certainty?
You understood the question. Why didn't they?
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by SuzianneI think I'm the only one who said 7.
A typical atheist fall-back comment.
Anyways, you are one of the ones who replied to the question with a 7.
Don't you feel that somehow a lot of other atheists here suddenly got "wishy-washy" on their certainty?
You understood the question. Why didn't they?
As I and others have explained there's no difference between my 7 and the various 6.9s. Read my first post on page 3 again.
You're getting hung up on a very unimportant detail. Why, only you can tell.
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
Originally posted by SuzianneNo I have never ever said I was absolutely certain that god doesn't exist.
Simple. Because you're not even capable of being honest about your "certainty" even when directly asked about it. You weren't being asked about the probabilities, you were asked how certain are you. We've heard it time and again how solidly you are "absolutely certain" there is no god, and then when you're asked directly to quantify it, you waffle.
But I repeat myself.
NOTHING can be proved about reality with absolute 100% certainty...
Other than the fact that some sort of reality exists, and that there exists
some mind in it that can ask the question, "who is it that is thinking and
what is the place that the thinker is in".
This is the problem of hard solipsism.
However, just as you can prove that the Earth is not flat, without having
absolute 100% certainty, you can prove that gods don't exist... or at least
that specific defined gods don't exist.
When the physicists proved the existence of the Higgs Boson it was to a
statistical and probabilistic certainty, beyond any and all reasonable doubt.
Not epistemic 100% absolute certainty.
EDIT: and as I have also said, functionally 7-e as e tends to zero is for all
practical purposes 7. But that tiny infinitesimal difference is important.
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by SuzianneThis implies that it is at least partly aimed at me.
(Let me preface this by saying this post is not only aimed at the Penguin, here, but all atheists in this thread who subscribe to this viewpoint.)
Oh, come ON. Let's get down to it, then, shall we?
If this is the "mainstream" thought for atheists on this subject, then I do not want to hear another word about how "absolutely certain" "beyond a shado ...[text shortened]... a solid 7. At least you are being true to yourselves, and not trying to hide behind an excuse.)
I do not believe that I have EVER said that I was "absolutely certain" "beyond a shadow of a doubt" "beyond all convincing otherwise" or that I can PROVE God doesn't exist
If you can find such a statement from me, I will happily retract it, apologise and vow never to do it again. I also think you will have a hard time finding such an assertion from most of the other atheists on this site. Though one or two may claim to be a 7.0 on your specific God.
I think you are sometimes reading what you expect to see, rather than what is actually on your screen. If you really have seen these assertions so often (or at all from me), I hope you will be willing to go to the effort of linking to a few of them.
My level of certainty is directly related to how I understand the probabilities, so stating the probabilities as I understand them is a direct indication of my level of certainty.
Penguin.
- Joined
- 29 Dec 08
- Moves
- 6788
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by PenguinThere is a notion in artificial intelligence circles of an "ideal rational reasoner", a reasoner having infinite reasoning powers. There is also a notion of "perfect information" -- information that is complete (and will never be more complete) and that is perfectly accurate. Put these together and a humble person attempting to reach a conclusion by reasoning on evidence will never report a 1.0000... or a 7.0000... .
This implies that it is at least partly aimed at me.
I do not believe that I have [b]EVER said that I was "absolutely certain" "beyond a shadow of a doubt" "beyond all convincing otherwise" or that I can PROVE God doesn't exist
If you can find such a statement from me, I will happily retract it, apologise and vow never to do it again. ...[text shortened]... probabilities as I understand them is a direct indication of my level of certainty.
Penguin.[/b]
There is also feeling or sense of certainty that can be experienced, which can reach 1.0000... or 7.0000... even in quite humble people.
I think the two types of thinking are witnessed in this thread.
- Joined
- 31 May 06
- Moves
- 1795
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by lauseyActually you can calculate the probabilities... or more properly you can bound the probabilities.
Realistically though, having any confidence on any kind of value on a scale is rather silly. When you have something that is not testable or falsifiable, you have no frame of reference to even possibly calculate the probabilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_probability
More links in my bio.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyOriginally posted by LemonJello
[b]"On a Scale of 1 to 7": "... 1 being absolute certain there is a god and 7 being absolutely certain there isn't..."
* Richard Dawkins: 6.9 "Even Richard Dawkins a man whose name has become synonymous with atheism says he puts a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being absolute certain there is a god and 7 being absolutely certain there isn't, and he says even ...[text shortened]... ndividuals' response index = 62.6/12 = 5.2166666... average [5.2][/b]
Observations? Comments?[/b]
For my money, I would add in some Charles Bukowski, George Carlin, Sam Harris (his Letter to a Christian Nation would be a rich source for scoff), Woody Allen. There are many more too....
Perhaps I will look some up to add in when I get chance.
LemonJello, here are several quotations from Charles Bukowski as you suggested (numerous duplications on Google):
"For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.” -Charles Bukowski
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.” -Charles Bukowski
Most people's deaths are a sham. There's nothing left to die.” -Charles Bukowski
"If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose. Charles Bukowski Thread 157452 (Page 4)
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbySuzianne & GB ... thread "Russell's Teapot" created for you two.
[b]Originally posted by LemonJello
For my money, I would add in some Charles Bukowski, George Carlin, Sam Harris (his Letter to a Christian Nation would be a rich source for scoff), Woody Allen. There are many more too....
Perhaps I will look some up to add in when I get chance.
LemonJello, here are several quotations from Char ...[text shortened]... then you've still got a soul left to lose. Charles Bukowski Thread 157452 (Page 4)[/b]
🙂
21 Jan 14
Originally posted by wolfgang59Originally posted by wolfgang59
Suzianne & GB ... thread "Russell's Teapot" created for you two.
🙂
Suzianne & GB ... thread "Russell's Teapot" created for you two.
🙂
Thread 157554
21 Jan 14
And Suzianne, while we're on the subject of unlikely things; here's my question again (previously posted on pages 2 and 3):
I wasn't asking about rabid wolves. I was asking about werewolves.
Why do you have faith that the FSM does not exist but can you not say the same thing about werewolves?
There are also tales about the FSM.
How about Dracula? Plenty of tales about that undead dude.
One of the things that I'm trying to understand is your use of the word faith.
Originally posted by googlefudgeBecause atheism is a rejection of the prevailing God, the divine in question.
We take you at your word about what you believe.
Why are you incapable of doing us the same courtesy?
According to the tenets of your beliefs, you have no plane on which to relate to God on the basis of your complete disbelief in His existence; in your doctrinal statements, He is a non-existent entity.
This is a non-negotiable aspect of atheism: God cannot 'maybe exist' or 'possibly exist,' as you've rejected the notion of Him altogether.
Anything less than a complete and utter disbelief in God is what is known as agnosticism.
Anything less than a 7 on the scale (no credit for rounding up or down) renders a person less than an atheist.
For a person to claim atheism and yet asterisk their belief with a caveat is--- at best--- disingenuous.
What: you liked the shock value of the term atheist? Felt like agnostic was too wishy-washy?
Wanted to make a very strong statement?
Just angry?
This is why level-headed people question others' beliefs: long-term insistence of emphatic 'no' followed with a weak-assed 'well, maybe...'