25 Dec 14
(John 11:11-14) After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Laz′a·rus has died,
(John 11:41-43) So they took the stone away. Then Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but I spoke on account of the crowd standing around, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Laz′a·rus, come out!”
So, did Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven or hell?
25 Dec 14
Originally posted by roigamNeither. But it's irrelevant and speculative.
(John 11:11-14) After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: ...[text shortened]... with a loud voice: “Laz′a·rus, come out!”
So, did Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven or hell?
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26 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by roigam
So, did Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven or hell?
Hell (Hades) most likely. Strictly speaking everyone who physically dies, whether Christian or not, goes to Hell (Hades).
In Luke 16 both the rich man and Lazarus went to Hades. The rich man went to the suffering and punishing part of Hades. And the beggar Lazarus went to the pleasant blessed side of Hades - Abraham's bosom.
Abraham's bosom - being the blessed side of Hades is also called Paradise. And the believing thief to whom Jesus promised - "Today you will be with me in Paradise" went with Jesus in His immaterial part to that pleasant place.
The vanacular of the word "hell" has gradually morphed into an expression of damnation. Strictly speaking though, hell or Hades, was simply the realm of the dead. IE. the sphere of departed immaterial part of man once it has been separated from the physical body in death.
So in John 11 that Lazarus (not to be confused with the Lazarus in Luke 16) was probably brought back from hell or Hades.
26 Dec 14
Originally posted by roigamHe called him back from Abrahams Bosom.
(John 11:11-14) After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: ...[text shortened]... with a loud voice: “Laz′a·rus, come out!”
So, did Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven or hell?
26 Dec 14
Originally posted by roigamParadise.
(John 11:11-14) After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: ...[text shortened]... with a loud voice: “Laz′a·rus, come out!”
So, did Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven or hell?
Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Read carefully Luke 16:22-26
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.
When an Old Testament saint died they went to paradise. If I had been there I would have been curious to know how Lazarus would have described the experience.
03 Jan 15
1 edit
For sonship.
You show some insight.
It would have been cruel to call him back from heaven.
It is not reasonable to believe he was in a place of some torment. He was a follower of Jesus.
It makes sense that he was "sleeping in death", in the Grave, the common grave of all mankind.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all,..
This just adds to the evidencee that there is no "hell, a place of torment".
In the 1st Century jailers were called tormentors as they restrained people in jail.
When we die, we are tormented in that we are no longer alive and able to move, we are totally restrained.
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03 Jan 15
Originally posted by roigamNeither, he was dead.
(John 11:11-14) After he said these things, he added: “Laz′a·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: ...[text shortened]... with a loud voice: “Laz′a·rus, come out!”
So, did Jesus call Lazarus back from heaven or hell?
Ps 88:10
Will You work wonders for the dead?
Shall the dead arise and praise You?
NKJV
Ps 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord,
Nor any who go down into silence.
NKJV
Ps 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks?
NKJV
Dead is dead, no thoughts, no pain, no nothing. When the Lord returns, well now, that is another matter.
03 Jan 15
Originally posted by divegeesterand vice versa? If you noticed, my opinions are based on the Bible. I'm sorry if that is not acceptable to you, but have you really looked into the Bible? For a free Bible study go to JW.org
Let me ask you this; is there possibly anything I or anyone else can say here that will make you changed your already formed opinion?
Getting to know the Bible has changed my view of many things. I don't know it all and never will. It's a joy to learn though.
(Psalm 34:8) Taste and see that Jehovah is good; Happy is the man who takes refuge in him.
Originally posted by roigamWell as we seem to be sharing our "credentials"; I have been a Christian for over 25 years and all my spiritual beliefs are based on the Bible.
and vice versa? If you noticed, my opinions are based on the Bible. I'm sorry if that is not acceptable to you, but have you really looked into the Bible? For a free Bible study go to JW.org
Getting to know the Bible has changed my view of many things. I don't know it all and never will. It's a joy to learn though.
(Psalm 34:8) Taste and see that Jehovah is good; Happy is the man who takes refuge in him.
Let me ask you then roigam...
Have you really looked into the bible?
For a free Bible please just PM me your address.
Getting to know the bible has really changed my view of things and while I don't claim to know it all and never will it is a joy to learn from the Bible. You should try it.
Nauseating to be condescended to isn't it...
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03 Jan 15
4 edits
Originally posted by roigam
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all,..This just adds to the evidencee that there is no "hell, a place of torment".
In the progressive revelation of the Bible it is better consult the latter disclosures of God over the earlier and former ones. Some groups are fond of consulting the Old Testament Ecclesiastes in hope finding a word which will neutralize a latter New Testament revelation.
Everything written in Ecclesiastes is written from the standpoint of man being "under the sun". We are limited in this temporal and natural life. So Solomon's standpoint with all natural men "under the sun" physical death is indeed man's end. He will not say anything or know anything or do anything any longer "under the sun" in this temporal world.
It is a mistake to grasp Ecclesiastes on this to make it the final word over and against the latter revelations of the New Testament. Eccesiastes does have its place. But it should not transcend Christ's revelations to us in, ie. Luke 16.
In fact Ecclesiastes does not [edited] even transcend certain things revealed to us about the prophet Samuel going to Sheol [Hades] and being allowed to come back in spirit to advize the disobedient and forsaken King Saul.
Nothing in Ecclesiastes should be used to nullify revelation elsewhere that annhilation is not the destiny of man's soul and spirit.
In the 1st Century jailers were called tormentors as they restrained people in jail. When we die, we are tormented in that we are no longer alive and able to move, we are totally restrained.
Anyone who is non-existent and is non-being cannot undergo any kind of punishment or discomfort in any form. Even God cannot punish that which has no existence.
To speak of annhilation into non-existence as "torment" or punishment in any regard is incorrect and not logical.
Plus the fact that if the rich man and Lazarus actually did go into non-existence then it would be rather unrighteous of Jesus Christ to TEACH that the rich man was being in torment.
To supposedly solve a problem you create another.
A non existent person is nothing. Nothing cannot be restrained of left unrestrained. There is NOTHING to deal with PERIOD.
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03 Jan 15
4 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiter
Neither, he was dead.
Ps 88:10
Will You work wonders for the dead?
Shall the dead arise and praise You?
Notice though this is put in the form of a question.
And only God to whom the question is addressed, can answer for certain.
Ps 115:17
The dead do not praise the Lord,
Nor any who go down into silence.
NKJV
From the standpoint of those who are left alive upon earth, this is certainly true. We NEVER hear from the deceased again.
Ps 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You;
In the grave who will give You thanks?
NKJV
Here again, this is placed in the form of a question that only God can answer.