@stellspalfie saidSo you're suggesting protein formation odds would be similar to one in six?
1/6 is correct. Ill ignore the rest of your post because I wasn't asking or implying anything else.
Right, now lets imagine that the three tiles are not picked out of the bag. They exist in a moving liquid in a container and swish around bumping against each other.
Scrabble 'A' has a shape that means it will lock into shape 'B' if they touch, but will only lock int ...[text shortened]... (on average).
Is the likelihood of A,B,C forming in order the same, lower or higher than 1/6??
@philokalia saidNo he wasn't he was responding to a long conversation.
So you're suggesting protein formation odds would be similar to one in six?
@KellyJay
Why do you think what WE think of as life origin is by random chance? It is not random that there is energy. It is not random there is water and minerals.
It seems inevitable that is just about all you need to at least kick start life without the need for a deity to jump start life.
What you refuse to acknowledge is the possibility the standard creation story is just that, a story and the real deal is a lot more subtle, for instance, there being some kind of deity, just not a big dude with a gray beard floating around in space hurling lightning and going let there be light.
What you ABSOLUTELY refuse to believe is the possibility that, maybe there is a deity or more than one but said deity invented THIS universe with all it's charms specifically to be compatible with life, in fact the universe DESIGNED to be compatible with life and this subtle deity knew exactly what it was doing, engendering what we think of as atoms and the periodic table and the laws of physics that lets all that stuff hang together and like I said, some kind of energy source, like a hydrothermal vent under the ocean, a lightning strike on a mud flat, whatever, water, minerals, energy, on enough planets in our vast universe can create life all by itself because that is what this deity WANTED. It is an efficient deity, not interested in day to day hand to hand manipulation of atoms to make life, having much more interesting things to do so this deity builds the universe like we would build a work of kinetic art. The deal with that is when we get through building a work of art, it stands on its own, the builder does not have to keep coming back and keep all the moving parts in a wind chime or whatever, keep all that going, it goes on by itself interacting with already present air, wind, water, whatever.
Try thinking about that possibility which maybe can free your mind of your present blinders. Religion as we know it is a man made construction and it is time you realized that fact. That still leaves room for a REAL deity, one which we will never know because it in fact has much better things to do than hold the hands of humans and fix all their boo boo's. Much more likely is the idea life exists all over the universe, has existed, exists now, will exist, will start from scratch on a billion planets not even made yet in the death of another star and may in fact already exist on other planets or moons in right here in our own solar system. And of course you will pull out the 'speculation' card on that but in another couple hundred years that card will probably be unavailable to any human because life out there in our own solar system will have been proven to have life with no Earth involved, in fact maybe in deep oceans on moons of Jupiter or Saturn to say nothing of life in the past existing on Mars.
@sonhouse saidCan you tell me where matter, space, and time came from in the beginning? They do not just appear out of nothing, do they? We must assume quite a bit for even suggesting the best possible explanation for everything and life is, either a godless one, or one that requires God. Those are both assumptions, pure faith on our part, the best explanation should fit what we see and know from what we see around us. Something from nothing has never been something we can show ever happen.
@KellyJay
Why do you think what WE think of as life origin is by random chance? It is not random that there is energy. It is not random there is water and minerals.
It seems inevitable that is just about all you need to at least kick start life without the need for a deity to jump start life.
What you refuse to acknowledge is the possibility the standard creation story is ...[text shortened]... be in deep oceans on moons of Jupiter or Saturn to say nothing of life in the past existing on Mars.
I don't know of any gray bearded dude floating around space with lightening being thrown about. I do believe in an eternal God who isn't affected by time, who is everywhere, knows everything, and is almighty. And if we are going to compare possible causes for everything, we can compare Him to what, "nothing" did it?
Laws of physics and everything else that is governing the universe are well tuned no doubt about that, if they were not life would not be supported. Nothing was also responsible that too?
I don't believe we created God, but God created us, those gods we do create all reside between our ears and they cannot do what God does. If you are going to deny God I'd start with the one you think is real, you'll never come to the real one looking within, this is not a thought exercise, it is a reality check. Those who think reality is only found between our own ears are quite full of themselves, the real answers are not found within, because the real cause isn't there, instead He needs to be invited in.
@KellyJay
All you have to do is step back and look at the big picture. The best story we have right now is no, the universe did not come about from nothing. OUR universe, that is. The real story might be MUCH more grand, that our universe is just one of perhaps an infinite number of them and some theories suggest a black hole in our universe 'squirts' matter causing another universe to start up with its own laws of physics and such, so a mother universe has black holes that spawn a daughter universe with slightly different laws of physics, the speed of light in one being one mile an hour and another a billion miles a second and some are inimical to life so they bounce around lifeless but others like ours have the right laws that allows the periodic table to form as we know it and presto, life pops up everywhere there is a halfway decent planet in the 'goldilocks' zone where liquid water can exist freely on a planetary surface.
Looking at the big picture, it just says maybe a god did it, maybe that god is what would be equivalent to a 10 year old science student and the universe is judged for originality and how well it can hold life and what life pops up in it.
That should bend your brain a bit😉
That last is a Sonhouse original😉
@sonhouse saidAre your views about our universe’s beginning based upon things we can see and measure concerning the beginning, or a theoretical wishful hypothesis?
@KellyJay
All you have to do is step back and look at the big picture. The best story we have right now is no, the universe did not come about from nothing. OUR universe, that is. The real story might be MUCH more grand, that our universe is just one of perhaps an infinite number of them and some theories suggest a black hole in our universe 'squirts' matter causing another ...[text shortened]... d what life pops up in it.
That should bend your brain a bit😉
That last is a Sonhouse original😉
@sonhouse saidNice story. It only pushes back the question to be answered at another time.
@KellyJay
All you have to do is step back and look at the big picture. The best story we have right now is no, the universe did not come about from nothing. OUR universe, that is. The real story might be MUCH more grand, that our universe is just one of perhaps an infinite number of them and some theories suggest a black hole in our universe 'squirts' matter causing another ...[text shortened]... d what life pops up in it.
That should bend your brain a bit😉
That last is a Sonhouse original😉
@KellyJay
That is just a silly story. That is the problem with life origins. Every culture has its own creation story. THOUSANDS of them and it makes no sense that your biblical deal is any more valid than any of the other thousands of tales and even your biblical tale is just warmed over from a very similar Egyptian 6 day tale so the biblical version is just plagiarized from an even older tale, older by a thousand years actually. I saw some of the earlier tale on cartouche at the Cairo Museum, an incredible place I might add. I also saw a board game that must have been 4000 years old, a 3X 10 board with piece movement and such, a primitive version of chess.
I also saw what we would consider a model airplane with front wings, back wings and a vertical tail rudder, looking like it had been carved by a Nebraska farmer for his grandkid. An eyeopener for sure, even painted blue and gold. It had a bird beak in front which was the only indication it was NOT from an American farmer....
It looked like it would glide and I always wondered if the person who carved this one out like 3000 years ago ever tried to do that.
There was detail we didn't know about till the Wright brothers and a few others realized about airplanes like the top of the wing with a curve and the bottom of the wing with a more flat line, just like aircraft today. It was maybe 6 inches long or so, maybe 8 and very well carved indeed but shown to have been at least 3,000 years old. Freaky actually.
Another thing that stood out. We lived in Jerusalem ATT and a took a tour of Egypt and our tour guide was a guy name Zawi Hawass, a well known archaeologist, which we did not know ATT, he later had an internationally broadcast TV show "Show me the Mummy", now head of antiquities in Egypt after some political problems he had to work through.
Anyway, he took us around, like to Giza and such and between the big Pyramid and the sphinx there is a collonnade of marble columns and on one of them he told us not to reveal what he found since he was in the process of writing it up for a journal.
What it was was a very worn carving on one of the columns not recognized by ANYONE for the past 3,000 odd years, he discovered and posted a paper about it.
IT was nothing less than a very worn carving of a KANGAROO! When he pointed it out, what was left of the column carving was obvious. It in fact was proven to have been a representation of a kangaroo. Which of course meant Egyptian sailors thousands of years ago were able to go all the way to Australia and found those roo's and brought back some to make pets for the Pharaoh but I guess they didn't know how to take care of them and the whole herd died off and that was that except for that one enigmatic carving we would never have know just how far and wide Egyptian sailors were able to go. That is a mind boggling distance for the boats of the era and I would loved to have been a fly on the back of one of those sailors so long ago.
@sonhouse saidBoats or connected land mass depending how far back in time who knows how there was a carving of a kangaroo?
@KellyJay
That is just a silly story. That is the problem with life origins. Every culture has its own creation story. THOUSANDS of them and it makes no sense that your biblical deal is any more valid than any of the other thousands of tales and even your biblical tale is just warmed over from a very similar Egyptian 6 day tale so the biblical version is just plagiarized fr ...[text shortened]... ts of the era and I would loved to have been a fly on the back of one of those sailors so long ago.
Without going back in time, do you know anyway anything can just appear out of nothing? Granted in this universe there isn't anywhere you can go where there is nothing, but with any logical means can it be done?
Looking at the universe if for the sake of argument someone outside of it did create it, could we find the creator by looking at the universe? If the universe isn't eternal and there is no reason to think it could be, it had to begin at sometime, and unless you can explain how it could begin out of nothing without a cause, I would submit to you it had a cause therefore a reason that has nothing to do with universe itself.
@KellyJay
You have a strange take on logic. For instance, geologists know pretty well how long it takes for land masses to crash into each other and bounce off and such. Those numbers are in the millions or tens of millions of years not a few thousand in which times I doubt those land masses like Australia moved more than a couple of miles at most. It was in basically the same place a hundred thousand years ago as it is now and we know that from the magnetic lava that spews up from under the ocean when those land masses split apart, the magnetic recordings of the field strength are tied to when the molten lava cools down past the curie point and acquires a permanent record of Earth's magnetic field for that time ( it also shows when Earth's field does its reverse magnetic polarity trick, which happens every few hundred thousand years or so, so the rocks freeze out, gain the magnetic field of Earth at that point in time and thus become a kind of wide conveyor belt with the record of the splitting thus the time line of said splitting. Hint: Nothing significant happens in ten thousand years. Not even one HUNDRED thousand years. Slow but inextricably spread apart and nothing but nothing stops THAT spreading of continents, specifically the separation of the Americas from African and such. The timelines of every crunching, sliding, subducting land mass on Earth all go at roughly the same timeline, a few feet in maybe a thousand years, millions of years go by with not that much movement.
If you look at Hawaii, you see those islands formed from the underlying mantle with a single big volcano going off maybe a million years apart and it spurts up under the ocean and a new island is formed, then it quiets down and the mantle is still slowly moving and then it burps again and a new island is made some miles north of the last bunch which is why the Hawaiian Islands are in a rough line because of that fixed volcano where the land mass slides over it and new islands pop up every now and again. And of course there are still smaller volcano's there to this day but not the big guy that makes an entire new island.
ALL of what I just said is just to show the extreme slowness of the known movement of the continents and we chart that movement inch by inch from GPS sats and such, from orbit we see EXACTLY how fast they move because the best GPS units can sense a movement of less than an inch so they see exactly how fast they go. Oh, don't pull the 'things moved faster in the past' card. They know EXACTLY how fast they move today, in the far past and can project into the future because the speed of the movements don't change all that much so they can predict where it WAS, where it IS, where it WILL be (the continents, like Australia).
Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
@sonhouse saidDid you know that the Bible says that God knows the name of every star?
@KellyJay
Why do you think what WE think of as life origin is by random chance? It is not random that there is energy. It is not random there is water and minerals.
It seems inevitable that is just about all you need to at least kick start life without the need for a deity to jump start life.
What you refuse to acknowledge is the possibility the standard creation story is ...[text shortened]... be in deep oceans on moons of Jupiter or Saturn to say nothing of life in the past existing on Mars.
Do you know how many stars there are?
Nothing is random. Everything is by design.
"Anyway that's my story and I'm sticking to it."
Please sonhouse, don't be so inflexible. 😉