OT God

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Its nothing to do with you. You seem to think that the Qu'ran is infallible, as a work of God should be. In which case it should be completely consistent with everything that modern science finds. I am not saying that it isn't, but I am saying that this persons claims (for example, that the Qu'ran revolutionised the way that humanity looked at the fl ...[text shortened]... ver written, and is thus more likely to actually derive from Greek knowledge than from God.

So what, !!!!

So far you are talking about the video. You didn't talk about Quran.

The video was Just a method to show you the scientific notes exists in the Quran. It just summerize what I want to show you. It is made by human so it could have mistakes (Althougth the video was talking about Arabs living at that time. But you insest to generalize it).

If you really care to know the truth, you shouldn't stop at this point(Because actually there is no point). There are many other points in the Video and the Article. Did you try to take a look at them? If you are so sure that there is no GOD, why do you ignore the other points?

I started to understand now that you are also behaving like religous people(Not only you but every atheist I have seen here). You are afraid to find another truth other than the one you know. !!!!

Originally posted by Nemesio
You are misunderstanding me.

Both Jews and Christians make the same claim about the Hebrew Scriptures. As I said, the
Semitic culture -- those which inspired the OT and the Koran -- placed great pride in the
continuity of tradition.

Your claim for the Koran is not unique.

Here were your claims:
[b]1- To find a mistake inside the Book. The ...[text shortened]... ion.

As I said before, this claim is hardly remarkable for Holy Books.

Nemesio[/b]

Here are three scientific questions:

1) In how many days was the universe created according to the Koran?

Quran say they are created in 6 days

007.054
YUSUFALI: Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
PICKTHAL: Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
SHAKIR: Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

but also say that GOD day is equal to 1000 years.

022.047
YUSUFALI: Yet they ask thee to hasten on the Punishment! But Allah will not fail in His Promise. Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.
PICKTHAL: And they will bid thee hasten on the Doom, and Allah faileth not His promise, but lo! a Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.
SHAKIR: And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number.

And some GOD days are longer:

070.004
YUSUFALI: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
PICKTHAL: (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
SHAKIR: To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

So it say Six days, but not like our days, because Our days are measured by the Sun, and it was not created yet.

2) Was the earth created before or after the skies?
There a many places:
021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

Here Quran say the Heaven and Earth were one unit and GOD clove. So thery are created in the time with the same action. The Arabic word used "Fatak" means spread apart with force.

In all other places Quran talks about creating the heaven and earth in Six days, but with no specific order.

Some details are given here.

041.009
YUSUFALI: Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days, and ascribe ye unto Him rivals? He (and none else) is the Lord of the Worlds.
SHAKIR: Say: What! do you indeed disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two periods, and do you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds.

041.010
YUSUFALI: He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).
PICKTHAL: He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;
SHAKIR: And He made in it mountains above its surface, and He blessed therein and made therein its foods, in four periods: alike for the seekers.

041.011
YUSUFALI: Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
PICKTHAL: Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.
SHAKIR: Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth: Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said: We come willingly.

041.012
YUSUFALI: So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.
PICKTHAL: Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.
SHAKIR: So He ordained them seven heavens in two periods, and revealed in every heaven its affair; and We adorned the lower heaven with brilliant stars and (made it) to guard; that is the decree of the Mighty, the Knowing.

As you can see the heaven and earth were created togather. The earth took two days to be created, and so the heaven it took two days to be completed in 7 layers. As I said before days here is not like our days.

3) How does the earth interact with the sun on a daily basis?
I didn't get exactly what you mean. Could you clarify this for me. Do you mean whether the earth is the center of the universe or not?

Originally posted by ahosyney
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and [i ...[text shortened]... ave opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

Who are these people? I would have thought that muslims believe Allah
created the heaven and the earth and then clove them as the text say. 😕

Originally posted by stocken
Who are these people? I would have thought that muslims believe Allah
created the heaven and the earth and then clove them as the text say. 😕

What people?

You mean me...

Originally posted by ahosyney
What people?

You mean me...

The text you've presented us with constantly talks about how "they" did this
and "they" did that. Who are they? Yusufali and those guys? Are "they"
Allah? I don't get it. 😕

Originally posted by stocken
The text you've presented us with constantly talks about how "they" did this
and "they" did that. Who are they? Yusufali and those guys? Are "they"
Allah? I don't get it. 😕

Ahha, actually he is refering to you, unbelivers.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Ahha, actually he is refering to you, unbelivers.

Yusufali is an unbeliever? And he and his friends created the heavens and
the earth and then clove them? That makes absolutely no sense. Perhaps
I'm so confused about that text that I'm even confusing you with what I
mean? 😕

I'm starting to feel really stupid now. What am I missing here? 😳

Originally posted by stocken
Yusufali is an unbeliever? And he and his friends created the heavens and
the earth and then clove them? That makes absolutely no sense. Perhaps
I'm so confused about that text that I'm even confusing you with what I
mean? 😕

I'm starting to feel really stupid now. What am I missing here? 😳

These are the translator name: I gave you three translations of the verse trying to cover all the meanings of the verse.

Sorry for that, it is my fault. So Yusuf Ali is the translator name. Shakir is the translator name, and so the third one.

Originally posted by ahosyney
These are the translator name: I gave you three translations of the verse trying to cover all the meanings of the verse.

Sorry for that, it is my fault. So Yusuf Ali is the translator name.

Ah, I see. 🙂 Thanks.

And when he writes "we", he means Allah. Right?

Originally posted by stocken
Ah, I see. 🙂 Thanks.

And when he writes "we", he means Allah. Right?

Yes,

In Arabic the word we referes to speaking plural or a magnificant single speaker.

Originally posted by ahosyney
Yes,

In Arabic the word we referes to speaking plural or a magnificant single speaker.

LOL

I thought it was three guys saying the exact same thing in three different
ways, and that they claimed to have created the heavens and the earth. I'm
really thick sometimes. 😵

Talk about misunderstanding.

Originally posted by stocken
LOL

I thought it was three guys saying the exact same thing in three different
ways, and that they claimed to have created the heavens and the earth. I'm
really thick sometimes. 😵

Talk about misunderstanding.

It is my mistake, I have to point out that there are three translation.

The problem here is each translation cover one side of the meaning, I thougth it is a good idea to give different translation to approximate the meaning to you.

When I read the verse in Arabic the meaning is somehow different from the three.

There are several translation of the Quran in different languages. But they are not considered Quran , we only refere to the Arabic Quran to get the exact meaning.

Originally posted by ahosyney
There are several translation of the Quran in different languages. But they are not considered Quran , we only refere to the Arabic Quran to get the exact meaning.

That makes sense. A subtle meaning can get lost in translation quite
easily. But from my point of view, the three translations I talk about
carries the exact same meaning. Allah created the heaven and earth as
one and then divided them, created all living things from the water and
then asks if the unbelievers should not believe then.

I think, if Allah stepped down on earth and did this before my eyes I
would have to agree that he is indeed the most powerful being I have
ever seen. Muhammed however is not Allah, and I have no reason to
believe that Allah exists in the first place.

This is not a matter of wanting or not wanting to believe. This is more a
matter of not being able to believe in something I cannot verify to any
extent. Some would say that it's a sad thing to believe only in what can
be scientifically verified again and again independently of whomever
performs the experiment, but I don't see it that way. I feel more like the
veil has been lifted from before my eyes (as many religious people
choose to put it), and I can see clearly what is humbug and what's not.
Most of the time. Sometimes. On occasion.

Never mind. I still don't believe Allah did all that because I don't believe
Allah really exists.

What was the discussion about again? 😕

Originally posted by stocken
That makes sense. A subtle meaning can get lost in translation quite
easily. But from my point of view, the three translations I talk about
carries the exact same meaning. Allah created the heaven and earth as
one and then divided them, created all living things from the water and
then asks if the unbelievers should not believe then.

I think, if A t because I don't believe
Allah really exists.

What was the discussion about again? 😕

I know you don't belive in GOD , and we discussed that before.

The idea here as follow:

Quran say Heaven and Earth we created by GOD. Of course it will say that. But GOD gave you a prove of that to think about. He knows that some like will come to ask about his existance.

So GOD through Quran tell you How GOD created heaven and earth: They were one unit and then separate them apart by force.

You don't belive that GOD did that, but some scientist belive that the universe was one unit and explotion formed the universe. It a theory that have evidences.

So GOD say from 1400 that heaven and earth were one unit and he forced them to splite.

And science says that there are eveidences that some force cased an explotion to form the universe.

Does this make any sense to you?

Or you will ask why should it be GOD?

Because GOD said he is before know one knows.

Did I made myself clear.

I feel more like the veil has been lifted from before my eyes (as many religious people choose to put it), and I can see clearly what is humbug and what's not. Most of the time. Sometimes. On occasion.

We are even in this point. My be I'm the one who has the veil lifted from before my eyes. You cann't make sure of that.

By the way the discussion was about the GOD in OT 🙂

Originally posted by ahosyney
I know you don't belive in GOD , and we discussed that before.

The idea here as follow:

Quran say Heaven and Earth we created by GOD. Of course it will say that. But GOD gave you a prove of that to think about. He knows that some like will come to ask about his existance.

So GOD through Quran tell you How GOD created heaven and earth: They were on ...[text shortened]... eyes. You cann't make sure of that.

By the way the discussion was about the GOD in OT 🙂

The possible creation of universe from a great explosion is hardly the
same as saying that the earth and the heaven (one tiny particle in the
universal scheme of things) was created as one unit and the parted so
that all living things could be created from water.

Science I believe claim that all life on earth started in the seas, and if
that's correct you have a interesting coincidence there. No one else at the
time had the idea that all life started in the sea?

But at the same time that thought enters my mind I'm thinking
Muhammed knew the importance of water for survival and so it's logical
to assume that we would have been created from the water that we
require for our very survival (true or not).