Parish/School Crisis

Originally posted by STRATOSPH3R3
Firstly thanks to all who have taken the time to comment.

1) My son is in 2nd grade and is only 8 - thankfully he seems ambivalent to the whole situation. I have asked him for his thoughts on the priest and he has no opinion one way or the other.
2) It is too far down in the sacramental program now to withdraw him. It could be done out of principle, ...[text shortened]... stallation as parish priest - a mass which will be lead by the bishop. I may make my stand then.

Good luck!🙂

Originally posted by lucifershammer
If a private word with the priest himself and a letter to the Bishop or Vicar-General does not work, then I'd either minimise contact with the priest outside Mass and the Church, or call him out in public.

In any case, I'd make it clear to my son that this has nothing to do with the sacramental ministry of the priest.

And I certainly won't give up my beliefs because of one lousy priest.

Exactly! My beliefs are not determined by one "lousy preist" which makes it all the easier to leave and go some other place where I can still maintain my beliefs and not fool around with the ridiculous nature of solving clergy problems that we witness these days from the Catholic church and the likes of Jimmy Swaggert.

Originally posted by STRATOSPH3R3
Firstly thanks to all who have taken the time to comment.

1) My son is in 2nd grade and is only 8 - thankfully he seems ambivalent to the whole situation. I have asked him for his thoughts on the priest and he has no opinion one way or the other.
2) It is too far down in the sacramental program now to withdraw him. It could be done out of principle, ...[text shortened]... stallation as parish priest - a mass which will be lead by the bishop. I may make my stand then.

You might print off a copy of this thread and nail it to the church door. That would be pretty funny.

Originally posted by kirksey957
Exactly! My beliefs are not determined by one "lousy preist" which makes it all the easier to leave and go some other place where I can still maintain my beliefs and not fool around with the ridiculous nature of solving clergy problems that we witness these days from the Catholic church and the likes of Jimmy Swaggert.

My beliefs are not determined by one "lousy preist" which makes it all the easier to leave and go some other place where I can still maintain my beliefs and not fool around with the ridiculous nature of solving clergy problems that we witness these days from the Catholic church.

Are you about to drag in the sex abuse scandals into yet another thread? I hope not.

Now, kirksey - you're not Catholic and so the sacraments may mean nothing to you. Hence "passing up" on the sacrament of reconciliation may be perfectly consonant with your beliefs.

stratosph3r3 and I are Catholics - and such an action is not consistent with our beliefs. Please understand - you are advising we change our beliefs. If your advice had simply been to look for another parish close by, that would've been different. Instead, you've spoken about skipping sacraments altogether.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]My beliefs are not determined by one "lousy preist" which makes it all the easier to leave and go some other place where I can still maintain my beliefs and not fool around with the ridiculous nature of solving clergy problems that we witness these days from the Catholic church.

Are you about to drag in the sex abuse scandals into yet ano ...[text shortened]... by, that would've been different. Instead, you've spoken about skipping sacraments altogether.[/b]

I was unaware that the Catholic church's sacraments were better than other churches sacraments.

Originally posted by kirksey957
I was unaware that the Catholic church's sacraments were better than other churches sacraments.

AFAIK, only the Catholics, Orthodox and "High" Protestants (Anglicans and Lutherans) have sacraments. Do you know of any others?

I didn't say that Catholic sacraments were "better" than other churches' sacraments. All I meant to say is that the sacraments are very important to us; if you're not Catholic you may not understand that.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
AFAIK, only the Catholics, Orthodox and "High" Protestants (Anglicans and Lutherans) have sacraments. Do you know of any others?

I didn't say that Catholic sacraments were "better" than other churches' sacraments. All I meant to say is that the sacraments are very important to us; if you're not Catholic you may not understand that.

Oh yes, in my church we have the sacrament of baptism, the Lord's supper, as we call it, ordination, marriage.

Also, I specifically did not want to be "anti-Catholic", and hope that you can appreciate the only sex scandal in my post that was noted was from a protestant tradition.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
What % of priests do you think molest minors?

You'd have to ask your leaders in the Catholic church for that answer. They're the ones that have been hiding the child molesters within their own ranks for several decades. Or more...

Originally posted by kirksey957
Oh yes, in my church we have the sacrament of baptism, the Lord's supper, as we call it, ordination, marriage.

Also, I specifically did not want to be "anti-Catholic", and hope that you can appreciate the only sex scandal in my post that was noted was from a protestant tradition.

Oh yes, in my church we have the sacrament of baptism, the Lord's supper, as we call it, ordination, marriage.

Are you a Baptist? How does your church view the sacraments?

I know the Anglicans and Lutherans have similar sacramental theology to the Catholics (with some differences - consubstantiation/transubstantiation, ex opere operato/ex opere operantis etc. etc.).

Also, I specifically did not want to be "anti-Catholic"

I didn't think you were.

Originally posted by wib
You'd have to ask your leaders in the Catholic church for that answer. They're the ones that have been hiding the child molesters within their own ranks for several decades. Or more...

Check the facts, wib.

Just because news of muggings hit the front pages of the newspaper doesn't mean every person walking on the street is getting mugged.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]One of those types should be easy enough to find, they seem to be dime a dozen.

What % of priests do you think molest minors?[/b]

I don't see why the proportion should be the concern when the absolute numbers are appalling. According to www.bishop-accountability.org, over 4000 priests have been accused in the last 50 years. Some perhaps falsely, which reduces the actual number. But most of those rightly accused had multiple victims and multiple instances with each victim, so I would say that 4000 is a conservative lower bound on the number of molestations. That makes an average of 80 per year, well over one per week as recently hypothesized in this forum.

Unless you're going to appeal to moral relativism and say that this is no worse of a record relative to other professions (which I maintain that it is in fact worse), then you need to face the absolute numbers and not appeal to proportions to reduce the level of criticism that the Church should endure.

Originally posted by kirksey957
You might print off a copy of this thread and nail it to the church door. That would be pretty funny.

This little piece of humour cheered me up greatly. Thanks 🙂

This is an extract of a letter I handed him a few hours ago, which he tore up in my face:

"Until that night I had not even considered the concept of ”Stages of Faith” in a conscience manner, if only for the reason it is a sub-conscious process, however in response to your question I believe that my faith is moving between the circles of Stage 4 and Stage 5. A presumptuous claim perhaps, but whilst sometimes I get tangled up in defining my role as an individual, as a husband and as a father, I know that there a many ways to see the world and whereas there is right and wrong, there is no black or white. I appreciate the logic of science but find the unexplained mysteries a greater fascination - a paradox I know, and I will always ask questions, but no longer do I do not need to know all the answers.

Would it be a fair question to ask what stage are you at on this journey of Faith? I know little of psychology so please do not consider this a personal attack, as I have said before I admire your passion and zeal, but my impression is that your journey has stalled somewhere in Stage 4, as the inflexibility and intolerance on certain issues you have demonstrated seems to be in contrast to the general harmony of the parish, especially when it goes against your opinion. Is that the parish you are trying to create at St. ......, one that must conform to your rigid instruction and where dissent is not tolerated? I appreciate the gauntlet you have thrown down to us, and the desire for change, but I feel the evolution of parish into something more is retarded by your approach.

I firmly believe that most of the parents present at the meeting would agree that the outcome we envisage, for the parish and school community, is to improve participation in the celebration of the Eucharist and as a parent set a good example for our children to follow. Clearly there are different views on how this can be achieved and different paths that can be followed – I believe that you should take a conciliatory, less reactionary approach, whereas you believe in the Machiavellian maxim of the end justifies the means. I cannot express more emphatically that your approach disheartens me, so-much-so that the enjoyment I once felt attending Mass is no longer there. I pray that the detour from the path I am travelling which I am forced to take is short and insightful.

You also asked for suggestions as to what could be done to improve the inter-relationship of the church, the school and the parishioners:

§ One of the reasons I send my children to a Catholic School is to supplement any shortcomings I have as a parent in teaching the Catholic faith, and given your concerns about the inability of (or unwillingness of some) parents to bring their children to Mass, I suggest that a whole of school Mass be held each Friday of the school term for the children of ...... rather than a class mass once or twice a term.
§ One criticism of Mass that I have is late start to the scheduled Mass times. This is quite frustrating and annoying, especially when young children get restless quickly. Also I do not believe it is necessary for you to read out everything in the bulletin, as most people would have read it and it unduly prolongates the Mass. Given that you cannot abide by people being too busy to attend Mass, this may be a simple way of extending an olive branch.
§ Establish a Sacramental program committee made up of yourself as parish leader, the school principal and religious co-ordinator, two members of the parish with no ties to the school, and one parent representing each class (seven in total) elected by other parents from that class.
§ You should share your dream for the development of the parish and the school with the community, as some of the ideas you have suggested, such as the child care centre and parish hall sound wonderful. Has a master plan been prepared, one that could be put on display for the whole school/parish to view and offer comments on?

It concerns me that after taking the time to put my thoughts and concerns on paper in a previous letter to you, that you did not care to respond. Whilst I did not necessarily expect a detailed response, I would have thought an acknowledgement letter would have shown some mutual respect and common courtesy and therefore I hope to receive some response this time.

To denigrate the Australian character and culture as you expressed to me at the ..... Spring Fair indicated a clear lack of respect and a severe lack understanding this country’s history and its people and unfortunately only emphasises the close-minded, “my-way-is-the-only-way” approach you take. I do not necessarily disagree with your views, and perhaps it is fair criticism to label Australia as a secular nation but the most godless place under Heaven and worse than a Communist state as you suggested is taking an extreme view, one of which I cannot accept. The simple fact is: that as a rule Australians are not over-awed by the Church, even if they belong to it. It is not necessarily brought about by apathy on the part of Australian Catholics; it is more a reflection of our democratic way of life and respect for religious freedom. I can only reiterate what I wrote in my previous letter, that the parishioners of your congregation, however large or small must be at Mass of their own free will, and not because of your authoritarian command.

Does not the holiness of Christ embrace us all, all in our messy lives, all with our weaknesses and failures and does not the sacrament of that holiness, the Eucharist is given to us all, including to the disciples who betrayed him and those who deny him?

I will conclude by asking you to open your heart to understanding that there are many paths that lead to the same vision, and way of loving the world and loving Christ. Do not let your pride and arrogance barricade the road we travel and do not deny “sinners” access to the Church."

Originally posted by STRATOSPH3R3
This little piece of humour cheered me up greatly. Thanks 🙂

This is an extract of a letter I handed him a few hours ago, which he tore up in my face:

"Until that night I had not even considered the concept of ”Stages of Faith” in a conscience manner, if only for the reason it is a sub-conscious process, however in response to your question I bel ...[text shortened]... ide and arrogance barricade the road we travel and do not deny “sinners” access to the Church."

As you may know I am embarking on a journey myself. I am delving into the often-denegrated world of the snake handlers. Reading about one of the preachers in this group he said, "People think snakes are dangerous. They are, but I'd rather deal with venomous snakes than the two-legged variety which are much more dangerous."

Originally posted by STRATOSPH3R3
This little piece of humour cheered me up greatly. Thanks 🙂

This is an extract of a letter I handed him a few hours ago, which he tore up in my face:

"Until that night I had not even considered the concept of ”Stages of Faith” in a conscience manner, if only for the reason it is a sub-conscious process, however in response to your question I bel ...[text shortened]... ide and arrogance barricade the road we travel and do not deny “sinners” access to the Church."

STRATOSPH3R3,

You described some of the difficulties you are having with this priest. Are there also differences of opinion between you and this priest about the doctrinal teachings of the Church that are standing between you and him ?