Originally posted by epiphinehasI am amazed that you find that amazing. You dont seem to realise that there are actually some people who read and observe the teachings of Christ. Remember this passage?
............... there is a humble church in Africa somewhere which pities us for the burden of our great prosperity, even amid their own terrible hardships. Amazing.
Luke 18 : 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Originally posted by scottishinnzI agree with you. Rajk999's point, that persecution isn't a blessing if you caused it through your own stupidity or obnoxiousness certainly applies here. Having no stake in getting intelligent design taught in the classroom myself, though, I can't help but unwillingly weather the fall out. I don't see that as persecution, but further down the line if and when the ostracization becomes excessive, yeah. Which is all conjecture at this point. My point is, Christians with their hands in the world's cookie jar, as if God meant Christians to impose their beliefs on everyone, need to be awakened to the fact that God's kingdom is not of this world. Persecution could only be helpful in that regard.
And who took them off by trying to get religion taught in a science classroom?
You can't start a fight them claim persecution.
Originally posted by checkbaiterI suppose anything that brings us closer to God can be considered a good thing. 🙂
It's understandable...the average Christian seems to turn to the Lord mostly during hard times, including myself, I'm ashamed to say.. I see it all the time in friends, etc. But it has helped me grow, in character and faith. I am so thankful for God's mercy and grace....🙂
Originally posted by epiphinehasYou're developing selective reading skills, I see. The tough questions
I suppose anything that brings us closer to God can be considered a good thing. 🙂
must rattle you, I guess -- you know, that works are an outward sign of
faith as testified by St James and stuff.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by Rajk999This was a parable, a ficticious story. It was an example....
What about the good samaritan?
What was his faith about?
Do you think that Christ's story will end with the good samaritan going to hell and the Levite and priest getting salvation ?
Originally posted by NemesioIt's amazing how you utterly ignore the letter to St James which specifically says that faith without works is dead.
Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Of course it can. Perhaps the thief had his tongue removed prior to being crucified. In his heart he believed, yet he could not produce any works to make his faith apparent. If what you claim is correct, then his faith could not exist.
It's amazing how you utterly ignore the letter to St James which speci ...[text shortened]... So, a hale
person who does not help the poor is necessarily not a person of faith.
Nemesio[/b]
James is not contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith. Like Paul he uses Abraham as an example of a man declared righteous simply because he believed God, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (James 2:23). If he did not believe God, then he would not be accounted righteous, and consequently he would not have produced works evident of sincere faith. But because he did sincerely believe God, then he could not have failed to produce works evident of his sincere faith.
James, far from contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith, is actually contrasting authentic faith with inauthentic faith. Authentic faith produces works without fail, while inauthentic faith does not. James isn't saying that it's possible to have authentic faith and yet not have works. Nor is he saying that works without authentic faith can save a person, nor, as Rajk999 believes, that authentic faith requires works to save (Abraham, after all, was declared righteous before he performed his works).
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Originally posted by epiphinehasYou are correct...
[b]It's amazing how you utterly ignore the letter to St James which specifically says that faith without works is dead.
James is not contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith. Like Paul he uses Abraham as an example of a man declared righteous simply because he believed God, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righte ...[text shortened]... to save (Abraham, after all, was declared righteous before he performed his works).[/b]
Rom 4:9-10
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.
(NKJ)
Originally posted by epiphinehas
James is not contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith.
When you say this, you seem to be suggesting that I think he is contradicting
it. But I've said repeatedly that I am not suggesting this. Will you please
desist with these strawmen?
Like Paul he uses Abraham as an example of a man declared righteous simply because he believed God, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (James 2:23). If he did not believe God, then he would not be accounted righteous, and consequently he would not have produced works evident of sincere faith. But because he did sincerely believe God, then he could not have failed to produce works evident of his sincere faith.
So far so good...
James, far from contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith, is actually contrasting authentic faith with inauthentic faith.
Okay. An inauthentic faith would be like the Pharisees, right? Ones
who say they believe but don't do anything to demonstrate it outwardly,
right?
If you aren't saying this, then you'll have to define 'authentic' versus
'inauthentic,' since these are words of your contrivance, and not of the
Epistle.
Authentic faith produces works without fail, while inauthentic faith does not. James isn't saying that it's possible to have authentic faith and yet not have works. Nor is he saying that works without authentic faith can save a person, nor, as Rajk999 believes, that authentic faith requires works to save
St James is saying that an authentic faith will have works. That is, a
person cannot have an authentic faith and not have works.
(Abraham, after all, was declared righteous before he performed his works).
Yes, because it was known that he would perform the works as demonstrative
of his righteousness.
Get off the idea that someone here believes that 'works save.' No one
is saying that.
What I am merely saying is that it is impossible to have faith without
having works.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioWhen you say this, you seem to be suggesting that I think he is contradicting it. But I've said repeatedly that I am not suggesting this. Will you please desist with these strawmen?
Originally posted by epiphinehas
James is not contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith.
When you say this, you seem to be suggesting that I think he is contradicting
it. But I've said repeatedly that I am not suggesting this. Will you please
desist with these strawmen?
Like Paul he uses Abraham as an example of a man saying is that it is impossible to have faith without
having works.
Nemesio
So you believe in justification by faith now? Formerly you had not.
"Being saved in the 19th-century sense is a discrete moment in time, before which you are destined to hell, after which you are eternally destined for heaven. Salvation is never certainly attained . . . A person who spends his/her life striving to be Christ (all the while failing), s/he is laying the foundation for the accepting of the gift given." -Nemesio, Thread 65384
If we are justified by faith, then it is apart from works. Even though works always eventually attend authentic faith, that does not mean we aren't already 'declared righteous' before our works are evident, which you seem to suggest in the quotation above.
Yes, because it was known that he would perform the works as demonstrative of his righteousness.
No, that's not what scripture says. God did not declare Abraham righteous because he would eventually perform works demonstrative of his righteousness. It distinctly says that Abraham was declared righteous because he 'believed God'. You are making an inference without scriptural basis.
Get off the idea that someone here believes that 'works save.' No one is saying that.
"Salvation does not come to you if you don't have works." -Rajk999, Thread 72933
What I am merely saying is that it is impossible to have faith without having works.
And what I'm saying is that God declares a person righteous before any works become evident. Believing God is not a 'work'.
Originally posted by epiphinehas
So you believe in justification by faith now? Formerly you had not.
I have never believed this. Let's see why you're wrong:
Being saved in the 19th-century sense is a discrete moment in time, before which you are destined to hell, after which you are eternally destined for heaven. Salvation is never certainly attained . . . A person who spends his/her life striving to be Christ (all the while failing), s/he is laying the foundation for the accepting of the gift given." -Nemesio, Thread 65384
All this says is that there is no specific moment before which a person
is certainly not saved, after which a person certainly is saved. A person
who becomes saved is one who lives a life of faith. A person who lives
a life of faith does works.
Wow: I just looked at the thread, and look what else I said:
Salvation is never certainly attained, only that the means by which to
attain it are laid out with certainty: tend the needy, comfort the afflicted, house the homeless.
And, it is not that 'works save' (I can hear your objection now). One cannot be 'truly worthy' in the
eyes of God because one cannot be Christ at all times. It's that works are the most critical
manifestation (epiphanos) of faith. One can think that they 'are saved' all they want, but
only the outside of their cup is clean without works. A person who is focused on 'being saved' or
thinks that they 'are saved' is counter-biblical, merely a Pharisee pointing out to God how good he
is. A person who spends his/her life striving to be Christ (all the while failing), s/he is laying the
foundation for the accepting of the gift given.
So, again, your claim is utter bunk: I've never said that 'works save'
because it's obvious that St Paul doesn't believe that. Rather, works
are the outward sign that one is a person of faith, that one is close to
the Lord.
If we are justified by faith, then it is apart from works.
Yes. But works are the evidence that Chrisitans are justified, not the
means by which Christians are justified.
Even though works always eventually attend authentic faith, that does not mean we aren't already 'declared righteous' before our works are evident, which you seem to suggest in the quotation above.
If one has the opportunity and capacity to do works and one does not
do works, then one is not a person of faith.
No, that's not what scripture says. God did not declare Abraham righteous because he would eventually perform works demonstrative of his righteousness. It distinctly says that Abraham was declared righteous because he 'believed God'. You are making an inference without scriptural basis.
And he demonstrated that belief by works of faith. Had he not demonstrated
them, then he wouldn't have been a person of faith.
"Salvation does not come to you if you don't have works." -Rajk999, Thread 72933
Right, because faith without works is dead. I don't see any place where
Rajk999 says that salvation comes about because of works. He
would be foolish to assert that. Works come about because one is in
the process of accepting the gift of salvation.
No works = no faith. This much is clear.
And what I'm saying is that God declares a person righteous before any works become evident. Believing God is not a 'work'.
Of course believing in God is work! It's the first 'work' a person of faith
is obligated to do. Treating your neighbor with respect is 'work.' Not
flipping off a bad driver is 'work.' Going to church is 'work.'
But Jesus specifies other work that believers are called to do. And, I'm
sure He would expect less from a 92-year old with a bad hip than from
a 25-year old young man, or less from a person working three jobs to
feed his ill mother than from a person of affluence.
What this sounds like to me is that you are trying to make 'being saved'
a free ride. It's not. Being saved means being a servant.
Nemesio
P.S., I had forgotten that thread. That's the one where you disappeared
for a month or so because you couldn't use effectively Scripture to prove
Jesus' divinity, nor respond to my citations which demonstrate that the
writers didn't believe that He was divine. Thanks for that trip down memory
lane!
Originally posted by NemesioAll this says is that there is no specific moment before which a person
Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]So you believe in justification by faith now? Formerly you had not.
I have never believed this. Let's see why you're wrong:
Being saved in the 19th-century sense is a discrete moment in time, before which you are destined to hell, after which you are eternally destined for heaven. Salvation is never vine. Thanks for that trip down memory
lane![/b]
is certainly not saved, after which a person certainly is saved.
But that isn't true; a person is saved for certain the moment God declares that person righteous, the moment they believe:
"Those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life" (John 5:24). "You have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God" (1 Pet. 1:23). "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37). "I will never leave you nor forsake you" (Heb. 13:5).
If there is not a moment after which we are saved for certain (i.e. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Rom. 10:4), then what you are in fact saying, whether you realize it or not, is that our salvation depends on works instead of grace.
"By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). This passage clearly indicates that God's impartation of grace is something that has already occurred. Grace is not something given to a person after they've lived a life of good works, as a reward. Grace comes first, and it has a definite starting point (e.g. Romans 10:4 above).
"That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace" (Rom. 4:16).
What this sounds like to me is that you are trying to make 'being saved' a free ride. It's not. Being saved means being a servant.
Grace is free, Nemesio. That's the whole point. If it wasn't free, then it wouldn't be grace. What it sounds like to me is that you and Rajk999 are trying to take the 'free' out of grace. Nobody is saying here that works aren't important; everybody wants the opportunity to do good works; Lord knows I do what I can, which I'm sure is the same for you and Rajk999. However, grace is something we reckon back to; it is already done the moment we believed. Therefore, a believer can live a life of gratitude, rejoicing in the Lord for the undeserved kindness already bestowed. Grace is free.
Notice in the following verses that the Holy Spirit given to the believer is the Lord's GUARANTEE that he has purchased us, and the GUARANTEE that he will give us the inheritance:
"When you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him" (Eph. 1:13-14).
"He has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption" (Eph. 4:30).
"We want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit. So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:4-6).
"He has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment that guarantees everything he has promised us" (2 Cor. 1:22).
----------------------
P.S. Your welcome for the trip down memory lane. 🙂
Originally posted by epiphinehas
But that isn't true; a person is saved for certain the moment God declares that person righteous, the moment they believe:
Well, yeah. But no one can know for certain whether God has declared him/herself righteous nor not.
That is, one can believe that they are righteous (confer: parable of the Pharisee and tax collector)
and be in error.
Furthermore, one can always jeopardize that righteousness by turning away from God after accepting
Him.
You could make the argument that no one that has truly accepted Him would ever turn away, but
then one cannot be 100% sure if he has in fact truly accepted Him to begin with.
If there is not a moment after which we are saved for certain (i.e. "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Rom. 10:4), then what you are in fact saying, whether you realize it or not, is that our salvation depends on works instead of grace.
This conclusion is not drawn from the premise, nor do I believe in such a thing. So, it begs the
question: why if there is not a moment does this necessitate salvation by works.
Grace is free, Nemesio. That's the whole point. If it wasn't free, then it wouldn't be grace. What it sounds like to me is that you and Rajk999 are trying to take the 'free' out of grace.
The gift of grace is freely given, yes (and I've never said otherwise...it's very frustrating how you
put positions in my mouth that I have not articulated). However, accepting this free gift doesn't
absolve you from having to do works; on the contrary, the acceptance of the free gift of grace is
also an acceptance of the responsibility to be a servant. This is why it is not a 'free ride.'
A person of faith who has received grace will by necessity be someone who does works. The
term St Paul uses is 'to clothe oneself with Christ.' This means to accept the mantle of responsibility
for serving the poor as Jesus would, to see 'Christ' in one another. This requires people of faith to
serve the poor, comfort the afflicted, &c, &c.
A person who does not (within his/her capacity) see Christ in those in need is not a person of faith,
as the division of the sheep and goats clearly indicates.
Nemesio