Pick Another Faith

Originally posted by bbarr
Seems O.K. to me. Strange you would deny that there are any true atheists, however. Given that definition, millions of people qualify.

It's simply really. The bible says (i.e. God says) that God has given all men the knowledge of the existence of God. This is part of the Christian world view. According to the Christian world view - all men know that there is a God - but many deny him.

Rom 1:19-20 ESV For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

I do not expect non-Christians to agree with this. Non-the-less it is one of precepts of Christianity. And I think we can agree that self-deception is the reason making the claim to believe something, does not mean one knows it. And if a person knows something, they can not believe the opposite. Therefore, even though you claim to not believe in God, I believe you know there is a God. Since my source of information is God himself, I feel confident that my belief is correct.

Originally posted by Coletti
It's simply really. The bible says (i.e. God says) that God has given all men the knowledge of the existence of God. This is part of the Christian world view. According to the Christian world view - all men know that there is a God - bu ...[text shortened]... mation is God himself, I feel confident that my belief is correct.

Sorry Coletti, but these claims of yours are silly. I do not believe that God exists, hence I am an atheist. I might as well claim that you are a Satanist, and that although it seems to you that you are a Christian, you are merely mistakenly denying Satan. This is the sort of absurdity that results from believing everything you read in scripture. Get some sun, man!

Originally posted by Coletti
It's simply really. The bible says (i.e. God says) that God has given all men the knowledge of the existence of God. This is part of the Christian world view. According to the Christian world view - all men know that there is a God - but many deny him. [quote]Rom 1:19-20 ESV For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown ...[text shortened]... God. Since my source of information is God himself, I feel confident that my belief is correct.

Incredible. A guy writes a letter to some people in the first century, some other people a few hundred years later decide to put it in a book and now that's God speaking??? What a supreme bit of arrogance and self-deception! My hats off to you, Coletti; no atheist could ever make Christianity look as absurd as you do.

Originally posted by bbarr
Sorry Coletti, but these claims of yours are silly. I do not believe that God exists, hence I am an atheist. I might as well claim that you are a Satanist, and that although it seems to you that you are a Christian, you are merely mistakenly denying Satan. This is the sort of absurdity that results from believing everything you read in scripture. Get some sun, man!

I do not see anything absurd in explaining a precept that is consistent with one's world view. If your world view is correct, then you are an atheist. If my world view is correct, you are a theist who thinks he is an atheist. I am merely telling you something that is consistent with my world view.

But you can not merely reasonably assert a claim that I am a Satanist because that is not consistent with your world view. You be in danger of being embarrassed by my (or someone else) showing you are being inconsistent or self-contradictory.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Incredible. A guy writes a letter to some people in the first century, some other people a few hundred years later decide to put it in a book and now that's God speaking??? What a supreme bit of arrogance and self-deception! My hats off to you, Coletti; no atheist could ever make Christianity look as absurd as you do.

This coming from a guy who can not justify his own existence is laughable. I don't think you even know what you believe - who are you to criticize what I believe? I have the guts to let people know what I believe and why. You on the other hand have nothing to offer, nothing more than hot air.

Originally posted by Coletti
I do not see anything absurd in explaining a precept that is consistent with one's world view. If your world view is correct, then you are an atheist. If my world view is correct, you are a theist who thinks he is an atheist. I am merel ...[text shortened]... else) showing you are being inconsistent or self-contradictory.

If I think I am an atheist, then I believe I am an atheist. If I believe I am an atheist, then I believe that I believe that there is no God. If I believe that I believe there is no God, then I believe there is no God simpliciter. If I believe there is no God, then I am an atheist. Hence, If I think I am an atheist, then I am an atheist.

I can and do reasonably assert that you are a Satanist. It is reasonable because I have a book here that says all self-professed Christians are actually Satanists. You are merely in denial of your worship of Satan. You think you are a Christian, but you are mistaken. Unbeknownst to you, you are fully committed to the service of your Dark Lord. Hopefully, one day you will come to grips with your Satanism so that you can effectively combat it. Until then, I hope your neighbors keep their kids away from you.

EDIT: What a fun game! Thanks Coletti. Now we can all just attribute beliefs directly to others, without regard to what they say they believe. That makes arguing against you so much more entertaining. I can attribute any beliefs I want to you.

For instance:


You believe it is O.K. to set puppies on fire.

You believe it is forbidden to eat pie on Tuesdays.

You believe pot-bellied pigs can grant wishes.

Wow, Coletti, you certainly have some strange beliefs!

Originally posted by Coletti
This coming from a guy who can not justify his own existence is laughable. I don't think you even know what you believe - who are you to criticize what I believe? I have the guts to let people know what I believe and why. You on the other hand have nothing to offer, nothing more than hot air.

"Justify my own existence"; why would I need to do that??? It is your pathetic need to "justify your existence" that leads you to a belief system founded by semisavages and maintained by superstition. You have my pity.:'(

Originally posted by Coletti
I do not see anything absurd in explaining a precept that is consistent with one's world view. If your world view is correct, then you are an atheist. If my world view is correct, you are a theist who thinks he is an atheist. I am merely telling you something that is consistent with my world view.

But you can not merely reasonably assert a claim tha ...[text shortened]... embarrassed by my (or someone else) showing you are being inconsistent or self-contradictory.

What I believe or don't believe doesn't have anything to do with anyone's world view. Even if you should be right and I would have some subconscious knowledge of god, it wouldn't mean that I believe in god. As long as that knowledge is not accessible to the conscious mind, it could just as well not be there, and it wouldn't influence my beliefs. Nobody can tell someone else what they "really" believe in.

Originally posted by Nordlys

Nobody can tell someone else what they "really" believe in.

Too bad, I was having a great time attributing beliefs to Coletti.

For instance:

Coletti believes that if you lick a certain species of tree frog, you can tell the future.

Also, Coletti believes, deep in his heart, that there is no God and that religion is merely a psychological crutch that evolved so as to prevent widespread suicide amongst homo sapiens.

Originally posted by bbarr
If I think I am an atheist, then I believe I am an atheist. If I believe I am an atheist, then I believe that I believe that there is no God. If I believe that I believe there is no God, then I believe there is no God simpliciter. If I believe there is no God, then I am an atheist. Hence, If I think I am an atheist, then I am an atheist.

I can ...[text shortened]... u can effectively combat it. Until then, I hope your neighbor's keep their kids away from you.

Like I said - you believe you are an atheist. But then believing you are a rubber duck does not make you a rubber duck.

Can you cite the "book" that says I am a Satanist? If you could, and you claimed to believe the precepts of said book, then I would acknowledge that your claim is consistent within your world view. I may disagree - but unless I can do more - I will not call your view absurd. For instants - I do not know what the Koran teaches - but if it says that all atheists are a rubber ducks, then it would be consistent for them to say that bbarr is a rubber duck.

It would be absurd to say they believe the Koran, and deny bbarr is a ducky. As it would be absurd for you to say you believe the no1 is a god. That would not be consistent with your atheism.

Originally posted by bbarr
EDIT: What a fun game! Thanks Coletti. Now we can all just attribute beliefs directly to others, without regard to what they say they believe. That makes arguing against you so much more entertaining. I can attribute any beliefs I want to you.

You bet me to it, and did a better job at it, too... BTW, I thought this was a psychoanalytical game. I didn't know Christian fundamentalists play it, too.

Originally posted by bbarr
Too bad, I was having a great time attributing beliefs to Coletti.

Sorry, I was imprecise. Nobody can tell someone else what they "really" believe in, as long as the "someone else" is not Coletti. 😉

Originally posted by Coletti
Like I said - you believe you are an atheist. But then believing you are a rubber duck does not make you a rubber duck.

Can you cite the "book" that says I am a Satanist? If you could, and you claimed to believe the precepts of said book, then I would acknowledge that your claim is consistent within your world view. I may disagree - but unless I can ...[text shortened]... you to say you believe the no1 is a god. That would not be consistent with your atheism.

Yes, and once you understand the difference between being an atheist and being a rubber duck, you'll be well on your way to understanding why these claims of yours are absurd.

The book is called "Why All Christians are Actually Satanists", and on the first page it is written:

Verily, I say unto you that all Christians are actually Satanists

This is completely consistent with my worldview (according to which Christians are, by and large, malicious and beset by an irrational hatred of humanity). Though feel free to attribute any beliefs to me that you see fit; apparently those are the new rules of debate here in the Spirituality forum.

Also, which species of tree frog was that exactly? I'm going to the track later.

Originally posted by Coletti
Like I said - you believe you are an atheist. But then believing you are a rubber duck does not make you a rubber duck.

Sorry, wrong analogy. Let's start again:

Someone who doesn't believe in god is an atheist. Analogy: Someone who believes he is a rubber duck is a rubber-duckist.
bbarr doesn't believe in god, therefore he is an atheist. Analogy: Coletti believes he is a rubber duck (you know you do, deep down...), therefore he is a rubber-duckist.
Your belief doesn't have to be true to make you a rubber-duckist or an atheist.

Originally posted by Nordlys
What I believe or don't believe doesn't have anything to do with anyone's world view. Even if you should be right and I would have some subconscious knowledge of god, it wouldn't mean that I believe in god. As long as that knowledge is not accessible to the conscious mind, it could just as well not be there, and it wouldn't influence my beliefs. Nobody can tell someone else what they "really" believe in.

I never said that it is or is not accessible to your conscious or sub-conscious mind.

What you believe or don't believe has everything to do with your world view. That's my point. If you make a claim that is consistent with your world view, that claim is not absurd.

If you believe my world view itself is absurd, then feel free to challenge it. If you do so respectfully, I may engage you in debate. If you are an ass like no1, I will call you an idiot (fool, moron, ass) or I might ignore you. But if you do debate me, you should be ready to justify your own alternative view and show why it is more reasonable or justifiable then mine.