04 Dec 07
After watching the Planet Earth series I was overcome with the feeling that there are far too many humans and that we were overdue for a pandemic wipe as some sort of retribution for our abuse of the land.
I feel bad saying that, but, really, it's hard to see all the damage we have inflicted on the planet with our amazing short-sidedness.
04 Dec 07
4 edits
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat do you mean I refuse to admit it? Of course I do. I just did! I understand what you are saying, but it seems you are misunderstanding me.
The universe may be designed for life, however that doesn't make the tilt of the earths axis perfect, nor would you be able to tell whether or not is is perfect simply by looking at is as you claim. Whatever your beliefs may be, you are falling for the anthropic principle hook line and sinker but refusing to admit it. In fact, the earth wobbles on its axi ...[text shortened]... time anyway. Next you'll be saying that whatever wobble it performs is the 'perfect wobble'.
I do understand the reverse position which you are championing, i.e., of course everything is going to seem geared for life, but the only reason it does seem that way is because everything happened by chance and we are victims of our own innate narcissism. If conditions weren't just right for life to come into being, then we wouldn't be here at all in the first place. It looks like the universe was designed with humans in mind, but it only looks that way because of the limitations of our role as observers. I get it. I just don't buy it, that's all.
Here is a link which lists a good portion of observations based on the anthropic principle:
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/design.shtml
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by mdhallJust so I know, damage to the planet...damaging rocks, dirt, water, or
After watching the Planet Earth series I was overcome with the feeling that there are far too many humans and that we were overdue for a pandemic wipe as some sort of retribution for our abuse of the land.
I feel bad saying that, but, really, it's hard to see all the damage we have inflicted on the planet with our amazing short-sidedness.
the life on it? What do you mean by damaging the planet; is it some
thing you worship, just trying to get a read on why you think something
should be done to kill off part of the human race you are a part of?
Kelly
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasYou still do not understand what I am saying. I am claiming that the tilt of the earths axis is not 'perfect' for life and the fact that you think it is is simply an illusion brought on by your belief that the universe is designed to be perfect for life. Conditions aren't 'just right'.
What do you mean I refuse to admit it? Of course I do. I just did! I understand what you are saying, but it seems you are misunderstanding me.
I do understand the reverse position which you are championing, i.e., of course everything is going to seem geared for life, but the only reason it does seem that way is because everything happ ...[text shortened]... se of the limitations of our role as observers. I get it. I just don't buy it, that's all.
What is worse is the fact that you went further than not buying it, you claimed that you could see the perfection in the tilt of the earths axis which is false whether or not you believe it was designed.
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by KellyJayBased on your reply I do not think you've made the step in logic that all life on this planet is bound in complex ways.
Just so I know, damage to the planet...damaging rocks, dirt, water, or
the life on it? What do you mean by damaging the planet; is it some
thing you worship, just trying to get a read on why you think something
should be done to kill off part of the human race you are a part of?
Kelly
If you think of the world as some rocks here, some mammals there, and miss the connections, then we should probably go to emails to have our discussion, because it's going to take a long time.
10 years ago I thought in a similar fashion, but through years of educating myself, grudgingly at first, and less so now, I've come to realize that we are part of a system that is infinitely more complex than our fledgling sciences can comprehend yet, and our technological progress has enabled us to destroy things we don't understand.
By all rights, I would say that if are wisdom and ethics had evolved in tandem with our technology, the industrial revolution would have probably been done in a much slower, and non-destructive manner.
But for today, we are standing in a pool of problems brought on by the disconnect between our technology and our wisdom, and the are a lot of hard choices in front of us.
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by mdhallI’m all for the interconnection within all living systems upon this
Based on your reply I do not think you've made the step in logic that all life on this planet is bound in complex ways.
If you think of the world as some rocks here, some mammals there, and miss the connections, then we should probably go to emails to have our discussion, because it's going to take a long time.
10 years ago I thought in a similar fashio ...[text shortened]... ect between our technology and our wisdom, and the are a lot of hard choices in front of us.
floating planet or rock, dirt, and water and so on. I’m actually a
believer that was put together by design not happenstance. That
however does not address my question, unless you believe the world
that is worth not damaging is the balance of life on it? I do not want
to put words in your mouth so please what is it that is either getting
damaged, or about to that you are willing to think that killing off a
part of the human race is a good thing to preserve?
Kelly
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasI just watched that episode a couple days ago. I found the DVD box set for $40 at a used record store. Probably one of my favourite purchases this year. Every episode is incredible. I just wish there more extras.
My three-year-old daughter and I were watching it last night. We got a kick out of that New Guinea bird of paradise cleaning its turf in order to perform its hilarious mating dance. Priceless.
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by KellyJayLife is a balance.
I’m all for the interconnection within all living systems upon this
floating planet or rock, dirt, and water and so on. I’m actually a
believer that was put together by design not happenstance. That
however does not address my question, unless you believe the world
that is worth not damaging is the balance of life on it? I do not want
to put words in y ...[text shortened]... willing to think that killing off a
part of the human race is a good thing to preserve?
Kelly
Humanity, through our boom in technology without accompanying stewardship, has thrown everything out of balance. Far too many humans now and, since we're mammals, the breeding isn't going to halt on it's own. It's part of our genetic program to breed, because the program wasn't designed to sustainably handle our current or future numbers.
A culling is coming one way or the other. We can either take the steps to enforce a negative population growth, or our unsustainable habits will break the system enough to allow a (or many) pandemic problems do it for us.
Death is part of Natural existence. Humanity's cultural demonization (specifically our Wester Mentality) is another contributing factor to our imbalanced thinking.
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by mdhallSounds a little like self hate to me, I'm simply amazed that you think
Life is a balance.
Humanity, through our boom in technology without accompanying stewardship, has thrown everything out of balance. Far too many humans now and, since we're mammals, the breeding isn't going to halt on it's own. It's part of our genetic program to breed, because the program wasn't designed to sustainably handle our current or future num ...[text shortened]... cifically our Wester Mentality) is another contributing factor to our imbalanced thinking.
the death of some portion of the human race would be a good thing
in your eyes.
Kelly
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by KellyJayMaybe what I'm saying interpreted through your world view would look that way
Sounds a little like self hate to me, I'm simply amazed that you think
the death of some portion of the human race would be a good thing
in your eyes.
Kelly
From a complex system (big picture) perspective, death is a positive part of nature and necessary to maintain balance in any system.
The fact that you are afraid of death (negativity often denote fear) suggests that your views are disconnected from reality.
06 Dec 07
2 edits
Originally posted by darvlayI originally heard about the program last year, but couldn't find a single copy in the entire US. I went to the UK Amazon.com website and to my delight found that it was on sale. After it shipped here we were immediately dismayed to find that our ancient DVD player couldn't read it because of a regional code discrepancy. Through the ordeal I discovered this hacker underground via the internet which sells the secret codes which unlock various DVD players allowing them to read any DVD from anywhere in the world. Problem was that our DVD player was too old. While searching for a new one (yes, I was this jonzin' to watch Planet Earth) I stumbled across a customer review which revealed the secret code for a certain DVD player that would make my version of Planet Earth playable. And this certain DVD player just happened to be available at Wal*mart, which (imagine this) just so happened to be less than a mile from my house. A long story short, that night I watched Planet Earth. Was it worth it? Oh yeah...
I just watched that episode a couple days ago. I found the DVD box set for $40 at a used record store. Probably one of my favourite purchases this year. Every episode is incredible. I just wish there more extras.
06 Dec 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadAxial tilt:
You still do not understand what I am saying. I am claiming that the tilt of the earths axis is [b]not 'perfect' for life and the fact that you think it is is simply an illusion brought on by your belief that the universe is designed to be perfect for life. Conditions aren't 'just right'.
What is worse is the fact that you went further than not buyin ...[text shortened]... n in the tilt of the earths axis which is false whether or not you believe it was designed.[/b]
* if greater: surface temperature differences would be too great
* if less: surface temperature differences would he too great
Perhaps it is not "perfect." Forgive me for waxing poetic. However, the axial tilt of the earth is definitely in the ideal zone for human life on earth.
11 Dec 07
Originally posted by mdhallYou are making two false assumptions, the first that death is a
Maybe what I'm saying interpreted through your world view would look that way
From a complex system (big picture) perspective, death is a positive part of nature and necessary to maintain balance in any system.
The fact that you are afraid of death (negativity often denote fear) suggests that your views are disconnected from reality.
positive and the second that I fear it. I believe death to be an
un-natural part of life and it is a defeated foe so it is doing damage
now but its end is coming quickly. With respect to which of us is
disconnected to reality, I'm not the one claiming that the large part
of my race dying here would be a good thing, that is you. I think
your views are quite dangerous and show level of self hate to think
that we need to be in some portion killed off for the greater good
for the sake of the planet or whatever it is you think is the greater
good.
Kelly
12 Dec 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasPerhaps I am asking too much here, but you have summarised the issues;
Axial tilt:
* if greater: surface temperature differences would be too great
* if less: surface temperature differences would he too great
Perhaps it is not "perfect." Forgive me for waxing poetic. However, the axial tilt of the earth is definitely in the ideal zone for human life on earth.
If the tilt were greater, we would not be here as we are. If the tilt were lesser, we would not be here as we are. Is it not just possible that we have evolved into the niche that supports life as we are?
"Is human evolution speeding up?
Humans have moved into the evolutionary fast lane and are becoming increasing different, a genetic study suggests.
In the past 5,000 years, genetic change has occurred at a rate roughly 100 times higher than any other period, say scientists in the US."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7132794.stm
Any comment?