14 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadThere is no ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case, God just is as he is by chance. WHITEY
His actions are ultimately random. There is no reason why for example God is good or loving or any of the other properties you may claim he has. There is no ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case, God just is as he is by chance. The other interesting thing is that you have no real way of knowing if he is as you believe him to be because it is equally likely that he is totally different and is deceiving you.
Look carefully and you will notice how the way you phrase this very subtly implies that God is an event or effect of some sort as if some pre-existing rule needs to exist to ensure that God is as he is --- as if God kind of "happened". The hard thing to get our heads around is that there actually was/is an ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case - God. As incomprehensible as this sounds , this is how it is. Nothing can pre-exist an eternal God. The phrase " God just is how he is" implies that you are asking yourself "how did God come to be the way he is" OR " how was it that God turned out this way". This is as meaningful to me as asking " how long did time not exist for before time began" is to you. (Get it?)
You need to take some quiet time and contemplate what eternity really means.
14 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadThere is no ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case, God just is as he is by chance. WHITEY
His actions are ultimately random. There is no reason why for example God is good or loving or any of the other properties you may claim he has. There is no ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case, God just is as he is by chance. The other interesting thing is that you have no real way of knowing if he is as you believe him to be because it is equally likely that he is totally different and is deceiving you.
Look carefully and you will notice how the way you phrase this very subtly implies that God is an event or effect of some sort as if some pre-existing rule needs to exist to ensure that God is as he is --- as if God kind of "happened". The hard thing to get our heads around is that there actually was/is an ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case - God. As incomprehensible as this sounds , this is how it is. Nothing can pre-exist an eternal God. The phrase " God just is how he is" implies that you are asking yourself "how did God come to be the way he is" OR " how was it that God turned out this way". This is as meaningful to me as asking " how long did time not exist for before time began" is to you. (Get it?)
You need to take some quiet time and contemplate what eternity really means.
14 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadThere is no ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case, God just is as he is by chance. WHITEY
His actions are ultimately random. There is no reason why for example God is good or loving or any of the other properties you may claim he has. There is no ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case, God just is as he is by chance. The other interesting thing is that you have no real way of knowing if he is as you believe him to be because it is equally likely that he is totally different and is deceiving you.
Look carefully and you will notice how the way you phrase this very subtly implies that God is an event or effect of some sort as if some pre-existing rule needs to exist to ensure that God is as he is --- as if God kind of "happened". The hard thing to get our heads around is that there actually was/is an ultimate rule of eternity that ensured that this was the case - God. As incomprehensible as this sounds , this is how it is. Nothing can pre-exist an eternal God. The phrase " God just is how he is" implies that you are asking yourself "how did God come to be the way he is" OR " how was it that God turned out this way". This is as meaningful to me as asking " how long did time not exist for before time began" is to you. (Get it?)
You need to take some quiet time and contemplate what eternity really means.
15 Aug 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI did. Now you need to too.
You need to take some quiet time and contemplate what eternity really means.
God may be the way he is but there is no reason for it. He just is. Ultimately any events started by God are essentially just 'chance'.
Poor old Hitler... don't you feel sorry for him?
15 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadUltimately any events started by God are essentially just 'chance'. WHITEY
I did. Now you need to too.
God may be the way he is but there is no reason for it. He just is. Ultimately any events started by God are essentially just 'chance'.
Poor old Hitler... don't you feel sorry for him?
Clarify please , do you mean chance as in having no purpose or meaning? Why did you put the word chance in " " ?
15 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadGod may be the way he is but there is no reason for it. He just is
I did. Now you need to too.
God may be the way he is but there is no reason for it. He just is. Ultimately any events started by God are essentially just 'chance'.
Poor old Hitler... don't you feel sorry for him?
WHITEY
Yes , he just is all loving holy , compassionate eternal and beautiful. He just is. This may or may not be "random" but it is not chaotic , or fragmented or without purpose or meaning.
Christianity asserts that if one breaks life down to it's fundamentals it is built on the ultimate reality of God's love.
You see even if you could prove that the ultimate ground of all existence (love, holiness , morality, compassion , joy , perfection) is only that way by chance what would that prove? The ultimate ground of existence would still be the eternal love of God. Nothing would change. God's actions and purposes wopuld still be highly meaningful and full of significance and purpose. There would still be a reason for the universe to be here and significance to our lives.
16 Aug 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterBut only internally to God. There is no 'higher' purpose.
Nothing would change. God's actions and purposes wopuld still be highly meaningful and full of significance and purpose.
There would still be a reason for the universe to be here and significance to our lives.
There is reason and significance whether God exists or not.
I am just trying to point out the flaw in the popular argument that life holds no meaning without God. If that was the case then God would hold no meaning without a greater god.
Meaning and significance do not require infinite causal chains or higher purposes or God.
Now back to the topic:
If you choose A then the situation is rerun and you choose B, what is the meaning or purpose of your choice? You say the choice is not caused by anything ie it is not time dependent, situation dependent, God dependent etc. Why do object to the words 'random' or 'chance'? What else can they mean except no known cause or no known meaning etc?
You can not run away from it, there either is or isn't a reason / meaning / cause for any given choice you make there is no third option!
16 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadBut only internally to God. There is no 'higher' purpose.WHITEY
But only internally to God. There is no 'higher' purpose.
[b]There would still be a reason for the universe to be here and significance to our lives.
There is reason and significance whether God exists or not.
I am just trying to point out the flaw in the popular argument that life holds no meaning without God. If that was the case then God would ...[text shortened]... a reason / meaning / cause for any given choice you make there is no third option![/b]
You haven't the slightest clue as to the mind boggling glorious conception Chrsitians have of who God really is. What on earth do you mean "only internally to God"?!
16 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou say the choice is not caused by anything WHITEY
But only internally to God. There is no 'higher' purpose.
[b]There would still be a reason for the universe to be here and significance to our lives.
There is reason and significance whether God exists or not.
I am just trying to point out the flaw in the popular argument that life holds no meaning without God. If that was the case then God would ...[text shortened]... a reason / meaning / cause for any given choice you make there is no third option![/b]
The choice is caused by something , the person themselves. The person is "self causing£ or self determining - just as God can act without recourse to any other cause that he depends upon so he has given this gift to man.
A self caused , self determined act is neither random nor determined by an external cause.
20 Aug 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterBut if analyzed further then it is either caused by a chain of causes ending in a prior external cause or it is random. You tend to go with the random option but refuse to admit it because of its 'no blame' conotations.
A self caused , self determined act is neither random nor determined by an external cause.
20 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadNo , wrong again. My dislike for the term of description of "random" is that implies a meaningless or chance event or act. Random implies that anything could happen for no reason at all , a kind of chaos if you like. This is not an appropriate description for God. Self determined and self sufficient causation independent of any external agent is what I have in mind.
But if analyzed further then it is either caused by a chain of causes ending in a prior external cause or it is random. You tend to go with the random option but refuse to admit it because of its 'no blame' conotations.
21 Aug 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterWell maybe you can explain how something that is not caused has meaning? The words meaning, reason etc imply causation. You claim there is no cause but there is meaning and reasons. You are just contradicting yourself over and over.
No , wrong again. My dislike for the term of description of "random" is that implies a meaningless or chance event or act. Random implies that anything could happen for no reason at all , a kind of chaos if you like.
This is not an appropriate description for God. Self determined and self sufficient causation independent of any external agent is what I have in mind.
But when it comes to people you want them also to be self sufficient but since that doesn't work you try to make them both dependent on God and self sufficient simultaneously. You want a reason but no cause, a meaning but no cause.
Random implies that anything could happen for no reason at all...
I have asked this before and you have not yet come up with a satisfactory answer. Given a choice between A and B what is the 'reason' for choosing A? You have already stated that on a rerun of the experiment with identical conditions you might choose B. So what is the 'reason'? Answer that or accept that your choice is random.
22 Aug 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou are just contradicting yourself over and over. WHITEY
Well maybe you can explain how something that is not caused has meaning? The words meaning, reason etc imply causation. You claim there is no cause but there is meaning and reasons. You are just contradicting yourself over and over.
[b]This is not an appropriate description for God. Self determined and self sufficient causation independent of any exter ...[text shortened]... might choose B. So what is the 'reason'? Answer that or accept that your choice is random.
Spirituality is filled with apparent contradictions (eg God exerts his power through powerlessness , the carpenter who is King , when I am weak I am strong etc etc).
God cannot be explained because there is no further source or deeper reality to go to. He is reality and ultimate reality cannot be a subset of itself. God is the meaning of all meanings and reason against which all meaning is measured. Where else can one go? You question is as meaningful as asking "how long was it before time came into existence?". There is no answer.