Predestination

Originally posted by dj2becker
So basically you are saying that free-will does not exist? When would you do something with your own free-will if there was no need to do so?

You contradict yourself. If free-will did not exist, and I'm not saying that it doesn't, then I couldn't possibly do anything with it, just as I can't, as far as I know, pet a eighteen-story ladybug.

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Originally posted by thesonofsaul
You contradict yourself. If free-will did not exist, and I'm not saying that it doesn't, then I couldn't possibly do anything with it, just as I can't, as far as I know, pet a eighteen-story ladybug.
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Would you mind using a real life example. An eighteen-story ladybug is not real.

Would you mind answering my question: When would you do something with your own free-will if there was no need to do so?

Originally posted by thesonofsaul
So you say. But I say the man will get out of bed only if he has a reason to do so, e.g.: he is not tired, he has to go to work, he is cramping up, he is hungary, he got scared by who he woke up next to. In other words, he is being "pushed" by something, just like a ball.

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You must have a life that sucks, you have no will to do what you want
simply because you want to do it? You have to forced, or have some
strong desire through need to act just to get out of bed. I think your
argument stinks and shows a little life on your part if you are painting
all you do because you have to do it.
Kelly

Originally posted by dj2becker
How do you then explain this verse:

Matthew 18:14 - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

As I see it you have the free-will to chose life and the free-will to choose death. Take for this as an example: You are on a boat. The boat starts sinking. You have the free-will to chose to ...[text shortened]... chose not to jump onto the life-boat and drown. How is this example not compatible to free-will?

How do you then explain this verse:

Matthew 18:14 - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

you explain it in one of two ways:
1. either the bible is a bunch of garbage which we should freely dismiss, or
2. let's assume the bible is not garbage. let's further assume that god is omniscient and that a portion of people do in fact 'perish' in hell. then the verse is clearly inconsistent with the notion of pre-determinism concerning the afterlife. so if you believe the verse, and you believe that god executes his will, then you should agree that the door you speak of is garbage, and the sign "you have been chosen" is false.


As I see it you have the free-will to chose

we are in agreement.

Take for this as an example: You are on a boat. The boat starts sinking. You have the free-will to chose to jump onto the life-boat or to chose not to jump onto the life-boat and drown. How is this example not compatible to free-will?

this 'example' shows that you don't really understand the real issue with the door. the question is not whether your choice to jump or not is compatible with free will -- assume that it is; then the question is whether your executing your choice to jump or not is compatible with determinism.

Originally posted by KellyJay
A few things are said about that choice, one is that all are welcome
the other is who so ever wills may enter, the choice is yours and if
you have a choice to make, how you make it draws the line, not
what another wants, or tells you.
Kelly

fair enough. then you agree that the sign "you have been chosen" is false.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Please refer to Kelly's post. I think it answers your question.

The point is actually that no matter what the circumstances are, you still make the choice yourself, nobody makes the choice for you.

fair enough. you also think the sign "you have been chosen" is false.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]How do you then explain this verse:

Matthew 18:14 - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

you explain it in one of two ways:
1. either the bible is a bunch of garbage which we should freely dismiss, or
2. let's assume the bible is not garbage. let's further assume tha ...[text shortened]... uestion is whether your executing your choice to jump or not is compatible with determinism. [/b]

What makes you think that God decides before hand that you will go to Heaven or Hell?

He might know before hand what you will choose in the end because He is omniscient. Because the reality is that he does not want to force anybody. But the fact is he would like everybody to choose what is best, but the reality is that many will not choose what is best. But he still gives you the chance to choose.

I think your misconception is on the determinism part.

Originally posted by LemonJello
fair enough. then you agree that the sign "you have been chosen" is false.

No, not at all, it is who-so-ever wills and all are welcome. You can,
or cannot through your will; it is up to you, you cannot earn it, you
cannot get ready to by getting good enough, it is only your desire,
your choice alone that will get you there. God takes who comes,
and you either come or you do not, God calls everyone.
Kelly

Originally posted by LemonJello
fair enough. you also think the sign "you have been chosen" is false.

Why would it be false to say that you have been chosen because you chose the right door?

What makes you think that the criteria for "you are chosen" does not depend on whether you choose the right door?

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, not at all, it is who-so-ever wills and all are welcome. You can,
or cannot through your will; it is up to you, you cannot earn it, you
cannot get ready to by getting good enough, it is only your desire,
your choice alone that will get you there. God takes who comes,
and you either come or you do not, God calls everyone.
Kelly

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Originally posted by dj2becker
What makes you think that God decides before hand that you will go to Heaven or Hell?

He might know before hand what you will choose in the end because He is omniscient. Because the reality is that he does not want to force anybody. Bu ...[text shortened]... choose.

I think your misconception is on the determinism part.

What makes you think that God decides before hand that you will go to Heaven or Hell?

nothing. what makes you think god even exists?

He might know before hand what you will choose in the end because He is omniscient. Because the reality is that he does not want to force anybody. But the fact is he would like everybody to choose what is best, but the reality is that many will not choose what is best. But he still gives you the chance to choose.

if he knows beforehand what you will choose, and if you choose not to accept christ, then he knows that beforehand. then this pre-determinism is inconsistent with the bible verse you quoted. if you adopt the verse, then you need to reject the determinism part. to say that he knows beforehand that you will choose the wrong thing, and then to say he still wants you to choose the right thing is ridiculous. how dumb would god be to adopt that stance?

you are saying that "you have been chosen" is false whether you realize it or not.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, not at all, it is who-so-ever wills and all are welcome. You can,
or cannot through your will; it is up to you, you cannot earn it, you
cannot get ready to by getting good enough, it is only your desire,
your choice alone that will ...[text shortened]... es,
and you either come or you do not, God calls everyone.
Kelly

you are saying that it is "your choice alone that will get you there."

therefore you are saying that determinism does not hold. then you are saying that the sign "you have been chosen" is false.

that seems to follow pretty clearly to me.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Couldn't have put it better myself.

EDIT: comment retracted.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]What makes you think that God decides before hand that you will go to Heaven or Hell?

nothing. what makes you think god even exists?

He might know before hand what you will choose in the end because He is omniscient. Bec ...[text shortened]... t "you have been chosen" is false whether you realize it or not.

[/b]I disagree, if God writes a script and you are written out because He
does not want you, I agree with your point; however, I believe you
make the choice God has given you the choice to make and the
power to make it. If you do not have the power to make it then
it is all a shame no doubt about it. Complaining you think the game
is rigged does not mean it is.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I disagree, if God writes a script and you are written out because He
does not want you, I agree with your point; however, I believe you
make the choice God has given you the choice to make and the
power to make it. If you do not ha ...[text shortened]... plaining you think the game
is rigged does not mean it is.
Kelly[/b]

i am just having a really hard time understanding your stance properly.

you say that it is your free will, and your choice alone that determines whether you get to heaven. (paraphrasing here).

i interpret that to mean that you are rejecting determinism. in that case, you are saying that you were, in fact, not chosen to go to heaven.

if you are instead trying to argue for a compatibilist view of free will (where both free will and deteriminism can hold), then please state that. otherwise, your position makes little sense to me.