25 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayCome now, you're latching onto the wrong thing.
That means what when it comes to the truth of scripture? Your reading
Token mean you know the truth about tree rings? What does one
have to do with the truth of the other?
Kelly
If you want me to respond seriously, then come up with a thoughtful question. "You know this how?" comes across as a feebly defensive reflex.
What do you want to know that I have not included in my response to jaywill?
26 May 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdFunny, but of the literature you cite, only one was contemporary (first century) with John's writing of his revelations. That was probably just a broad (but otherwise harmless) generalization on your part, right?
What is some of the other apocalyptic literature of the time? Could you indicate five or six other apocalyptic writings of the time to which you are comparing the book of Revelation? (That is non-Christian liturature NOT based on New Testament teachings.)
Sure. There's actually a fair number of Jewish writings in the apocalyptic mode. Mostly, these ...[text shortened]... threes in the images."
What's your take?[/b]
26 May 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrdLatching on the wrong thing? I'm pointing out to you that your having
Come now, you're latching onto the wrong thing.
If you want me to respond seriously, then come up with a thoughtful question. "You know this how?" comes across as a feebly defensive reflex.
What do you want to know that I have not included in my response to jaywill?
read someone's books of fiction does not qualify you in saying what is
and is not true in scripture, you want to be taken seriously say
something serious.
Kelly
26 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayIf you want to be taken seriously then read other people's posts. He said the bible reads like a Michael Crichton novel, not that you could use a Michael Crichton novel to determine the truth of scripture. Anyway, you already admitted to me that there is no objective truth in scripture, as the existence of God and therefore the truth of the bible is completely a matter of faith. His main point, that factuality has little to do with the bible, stands as you have already admitted that referring to God as factual is erroneous.
Latching on the wrong thing? I'm pointing out to you that your having
read someone's books of fiction does not qualify you in saying what is
and is not true in scripture, you want to be taken seriously say
something serious.
Kelly
27 May 07
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayMy comment regarding Crichton and the extent to which Revelation reminds me of his novels has to do with its narrative structure.
I'm pointing out to you that your having read someone's books of fiction does not qualify you in saying what is and is not true in scripture.
If you've read Crichton, you'll know that he likes to build up suspense, but at the end the payoff is for jack. In The Andromeda Strain, a virus that threatened to wipe out humanity spontaneously mutates into a harmless form. In Contact, humans received instructions from outer space that they use to build this massive contraption that they think is a spaceship. They turn it on, and the main characters end up meeting aliens, but are told "you guys are still morons as a species, so go back home for another few eons." This would be huge news at home, but they get returned to earth at the precise moment they left, and to outsiders it looks like they never left. The general public doesn't believe they met anybody, and life goes on as usual.
In short, Crichton uses what seem like unfair narrative techniques to neatly tie up all the chaos he unleashes in the narrative. After you read a couple, you know he's going to do it in his next book, too. Consequently, you learn to read Crichton with a certain detachment.
By comparison, 1st-century readers (by which I mean those to whom the letter was read, since most people couldn't read themselves at that time) would understand that Revelation as a letter in the apocalyptic vein. They would expect it to contain all kinds of violent, disturbing imagery, but also to end with a reaffirmation of God's being in full control of the situation. They wouldn't expect it to end with God losing. In fact, the crazier the imagery, the greater the proof of God's power, because of his ability to fix the whole mess at the end.
You tell me: what do I need in order to be qualified to read two kinds of literature and compare their narrative structures?
27 May 07
Originally posted by whiterose"It's not a literal telling of the future, in other words. It's like a wish-fulfillment action movie, with the deus ex machina employed at the end. It's like a crappy Michael Crichton novel. "
If you want to be taken seriously then read other people's posts. He said the bible reads like a Michael Crichton novel, not that you could use a Michael Crichton novel to determine the truth of scripture. Anyway, you already admitted to me that there is no objective truth in scripture, as the existence of God and therefore the truth of the bible is comple ...[text shortened]... h the bible, stands as you have already admitted that referring to God as factual is erroneous.
He said it was not a literal telling of the future, you may still read the
words, so I asked how he knew. His ability to read Crichton and the
Bible does not make his knowledge on what is, or isn't true with regard
to the truthfulness of scripture. Writing styles of story tellers does not
go to the truth of the story being told, only the styles.
Kelly
27 May 07
Originally posted by blakbuzzrd"It's not a literal telling of the future, in other words. It's like a wish-fulfillment action movie, with the deus ex machina employed at the end. It's like a crappy Michael Crichton novel."
My comment regarding Crichton and the extent to which Revelation reminds me of his novels has to do with its narrative structure.
If you've read Crichton, you'll know that he likes to build up suspense, but at the end the payoff is for jack. In The Andromeda Strain, a virus that threatened to wipe out humanity spontaneously mutates into a harmle ...[text shortened]... o be qualified to read two kinds of literature and compare their narrative structures?
I didn't then and do not know care how you think Revelation and
Crichton carry on narrative structure, I wanted to know how you came
up with Revelation is not a story about the literal telling of the future?
Kelly
27 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayBecause, again, I understand the basic characteristics of the genre of which it is representative.
"It's not a literal telling of the future, in other words. It's like a wish-fulfillment action movie, with the deus ex machina employed at the end. It's like a crappy Michael Crichton novel."
I didn't then and do not know care how you think Revelation and
Crichton carry on narrative structure, I wanted to know how you came
up with Revelation is not a story about the literal telling of the future?
Kelly
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28 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayMaybe I'm dense, but I don't find an answer to my question in there. Where, physically, is the Lake of Fire?
Rev 20
Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city h ...[text shortened]... anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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28 May 07
Originally posted by KellyJayAnd I wouldn't trust that translation. Hades is a Greek god.
Rev 20
Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city h ...[text shortened]... anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
29 May 07
Originally posted by FreakyKBHAncient genres don't develop and die with the rapidity later made possible by the invention of the printing press. Revelation is late 1st century; the Apocalypse of Peter and the Shepherd of Hermas are first half of the second century. That's pretty close.
Funny, but of the literature you cite, only one was contemporary (first century) with John's writing of his revelations. That was probably just a broad (but otherwise harmless) generalization on your part, right?
That aside, what's your point? That Revelation isn't actually a work that should be considered in light of a larger group of literature?
