Spirituality
09 Apr 12
14 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFThis is false as an overall view of karma and reincarnation. It may be one outcome of actions taken in this life. To say that everyone who kills ten animals will end up with ten animal lifetimes is false.
Even if this were true, and assuming you were able to prove it, what would it matter if we are "be born 10 times as an animal" to whom "someone will be cruel", if - when we are in our human incarnation - we have absolutely no memory or perception of it?
There are too many other specific details that imply that all universal principles ought to be codes or guidelines rather than hard and fastened rules.
14 Apr 12
Originally posted by DasaThe only flaw in that theory is some animals have intelligence near to humans. For instance, some great apes have been given non-verbal IQ tests, the same kind given to humans with some disability that prevents them from taking a normal test and these apes come out with an IQ of 80, near the human range.
Animals in the wild killing each other for food do not cause each other pain and suffering as do mechanical slaughter houses.
When one animal devours another - by special arrangement there is little suffering because animals do not have a false ego like humans......and in the attack they dis-associate themselves from the pain. (automatically) just like a mon ...[text shortened]...
This is the power and the potency of true religion - that it will change people for the better.
Also Dolphins have a huge brain, and are clearly intelligent, as well as some whales, Porpoise and such, they certainly feel pain when predated.
Also some birds, there was one parrot named Alex, who could understand something like 300 human language words, I think english in that case.
There are plenty of birds who can use tools, chimps are known to use tools including rocks, even otters use rocks to break open clams and such.
You have a very narrow view of what intelligence is.
For instance, I caught a baby mouse in a trap I no longer use because of what I am going to tell you:
There is a trap that is really terrible, it consists of an extremely sticky substance that once a mouse touches it, cannot pull free and this baby mouse did that. I tried to free it but could not without pulling off its legs so I took it to the garage with the intention of killing it as a mercy killing. So I am walking to the garage and then looked at the poor mouse. It looked back at me with such obvious and fast fear I never forgot that. I killed it quickly so it would not suffer but it was clear there was intelligence enough in that mouse to show extreme fear and was obvious to me animals feel pain just as you and I.
Your Veda's are giving you false information if you think animals don't feel pain. For instance, we know chimps wage war on each other and kill other monkeys. Those monkeys have very large brains compared to say Panda bears, who have very shrunken brains due to their single food source, bamboo shoots. Even those bears feel pain, even though they are clearly much lower on the intelligence scale than chimps, who have been clearly shown to be able to understand some english words.
The latest finding is about baboons, they have recently been shown to be able to figure out what english letter combinations would be words and which are non-sense. Even though they have no idea what the words mean, they can tell with very high accuracy if say XRTZ is a word or not or KITE is a word or not. They are rewarded with bits of food for correct answers and the experiments are designed to not give them clues from human operators. That means they have built in the capability for what you might call pre-reading. That means they have intelligence not known before, and all of that means the Vedas don't tell the truth, that some animals have intelligence close to humans.
To say otherwise is just egoistic jargon, wishful thinking by the writers of your Vedas, clearly not inspired by any god because a real god would know exactly which animal feels pain and fear when predated and would know Porpoises, Dolphins, some whales, chimpanzee's, Bonobo's, and some birds are way up there in intelligence, approaching human intelligence.
To say otherwise is just wishful thinking. Humans are not as unique as your veda's or christians or islams or Jews or any other religion that puts mankind on the top of the intelligence pedestal.
14 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Dasadasa said:
The animal kingdom can seem brutal at times - but the animal that is torn apart is probably an animal who in a previous life was a human who was very cruel to animals.
but the animal that is torn apart is probably an animal who in a previous life was a human who was very cruel to animals.
"probably" ??? You mean you are not sure? Can you see that this is circular argument? You are justifying your lord allowing the animals to have suffering, in an attempt to prove that animal suffering is bad. You contradict yourself however be earlier talking about a "special arrangement" to minimise the suffering, so I ask again:
What is the "special arrangement" animals have with your lord which you mentioned in reference to animals not suffering when they eat each other?
14 Apr 12
2 edits
Originally posted by DasaI guess you must have been an animal that got killed by another animal in one
Animals in the wild killing each other for food do not cause each other pain and suffering as do mechanical slaughter houses.
When one animal devours another - by special arrangement there is little suffering because animals do not have a false ego like humans......and in the attack they dis-associate themselves from the pain. (automatically) just like a mon ...[text shortened]...
This is the power and the potency of true religion - that it will change people for the better.
of your former lives to know that all animals being killed by another animal
dis-associates themselves with their pain. And you must have been an animal
who was killed by man in a slaughter house to know that animals do not dis-associate
themselves with their pain in those cases. Right?
14 Apr 12
Originally posted by sonhouseWhat is the best way to cook them?
The only flaw in that theory is some animals have intelligence near to humans. For instance, some great apes have been given non-verbal IQ tests, the same kind given to humans with some disability that prevents them from taking a normal test and these apes come out with an IQ of 80, near the human range.
14 Apr 12
Originally posted by divegeester
dasa said:but the animal that is torn apart is [b]probablyan animal who in a previous life was a human who was very cruel to animals.
"probably" ??? You mean you are not sure? Can you see that this is circular argument? You are justifying your lord allowing the animals to have suffering, in an attempt to prove that animal sufferi ...[text shortened]... r lord which you mentioned in reference to animals not suffering when they eat each other?[/b]Bump for dasa
20 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFThis world is perfect.
Your post sounds like you are on autopilot. I asked a specific question about "God"'s method of controlling the number of 'Animal vehicles for the soul' on this planet being his arrangement for them to eat each other. This seems ludicrous. Perhaps you have explained it badly?
Suffering is the rule.
This world is not the spiritual world where there is no death and old age and disease.
The suffering however is not ultimately real.....because the material energy is just that (energy) and energy cannot be destroyed or harmed but only transformed.
For the unenlightened all the suffering in the world is real......but for the enlightened it is only an illusion.
An illusion is what it actually is......so the lessons to be learnt about suffering in this world are for the ignorant and illusioned who actually need a bucket full of illusionary suffering to create the impitus to seek out true spirituality and embrace it.
For the enlightened and self realized soul there is no suffering because they are in knowledge and are unaffected.
But for the ignorant they are believing this world is real and therefore suffer very much.
So now we understand that there is no suffering accept that which you create for your self through ignorance............and we can now understand the neutral position of the Lord as regards to all of this.
This answers Digeesters question why the Lord created a world where animals kill each other.................it is because no thing actually gets killed at all - and its all an illusion and ....a perfect illusion at that.
Ask yourself what has been killed (nothing) but the illusion of something.
20 Apr 12
Originally posted by DasaSince it is all an illusion and there is not real suffering, then what is wrong with
This world is perfect.
Suffering is the rule.
This world is not the spiritual world where there is no death and old age and disease.
The suffering however is not ultimately real.....because the material energy is just that (energy) and energy cannot be destroyed or harmed but only transformed.
For the unenlightened all the suffering in the world is ...[text shortened]... usion at that.
Ask yourself what has been killed (nothing) but the illusion of something.
the illusion of killing animals and eating them for food? Maybe the animal
killers who wrote the Holy Bible are not so bad after all, huh?
20 Apr 12
Originally posted by DasaThanks for this explanation of why your lord created animals which kill each other; I can see how it would make sense for you, within your belief structure.
This answers Digeesters question why the Lord created a world where animals kill each other...it is because no thing actually gets killed at all - and its all an illusion and a perfect illusion at that. Ask yourself what has been killed (nothing) but the illusion of something.
But if the killing of animals by each other is "all an illusion" and "nothing actually gets killed", why are you so upset by the illusion of humans (which are only animals after all) killing to eat?
20 Apr 12
Originally posted by RJHindsThe animal is not self realized or enlightened.
Since it is all an illusion and there is not real suffering, then what is wrong with
the illusion of killing animals and eating them for food? Maybe the animal
killers who wrote the Holy Bible are not so bad after all, huh?
20 Apr 12
Originally posted by divegeesterAnimals are not self realized or enlightened.
Thanks for this explanation of why your lord created animals which kill each other; I can see how it would make sense for you, within your belief structure.
But if the killing of animals by each other is "all an illusion" and "nothing actually gets killed", why are you so upset by the illusion of humans (which are only animals after all) killing to eat?
20 Apr 12
2 edits
Originally posted by DasaI'm not sure what you mean?
Animals are not self realized or enlightened.
I asked:
"if (as you say) the killing of animals by each other is "all an illusion" and "nothing actually gets killed", why are you so upset by the "illusion" of humans killing to eat?"
You replied:
"Animals are not self realized or enlightened."
How does the animal's lack of self realisation impact whether or not the "illusion" of them being killed for food is offensive to you?